What Concept Am I Seeing?

[ChrisN]

Sometimes there are stupid questions and this could be one of them. Also, for reference to my experience level, while I know several major keys and can scale through them, I don't yet understand how the same song can be played in different keys using different notes, nor am I clear how to recognize from hearing it what key a song is in.

I learned a simple melody I played from notation in frets 1-4 and it uses 2 open strings (b,e) for the first 2 notes (B,e). Song is written in the key of G.
I decided to learn the melody elsewhere on the fretboard and so found the same notation notes to start the melody up at the 9th fret, and learned to play it up there, focusing on the first 5 notes, the first 2 notes of which are still B and e (same as the open strings in the original), but which at the 9th fret are now, when fretted, on the middle 2 strings (D, G). No problem or question there. Song sounds the same.

I then played the same opening pattern (first 5 notes of the tune) at the 7th fret, starting by playing the fretted notes on the same D and G strings, where the first 2 fretted notes are now A and D (not B and e). The tone/tenor of the tune are now changed, but the song still sounds like the "right" notes are being played in the right order, and anyone would recognize the song. I found the same result when I started the song on the fretted D and G strings at the 5th fret (to produce the fretted notes G and C to start the song). The versions of the song played at the 9th, 7th, and 5th frets all sounded different, but pretty good in their own ways.

At that point, the pattern looked like it could be played anywhere on the board, regardless of what notes came under hand, sort of like a scale shape. When I tried to start the tune at the same frets using the same pattern, eg 9th fret A and D strings fretted to #F and B, the song was barely recognizable and sounded bad. Things got worse when I moved to the E and A strings at the 9th fret.

Based on the above, can anyone tell me what concept I am observing so that I can drill down on it using the concept name to search for more?

Why does the tune work using the pattern starting on the middle 2 strings, but deteriorates when moving the start to the A/D and E/A strings?

With respect to the fact that it works on the middle strings at different frets - am I observing the song being played in a different key from that in which was written (key of G)?

If so, having played the notes, how do I determine the key I'm playing it in from the notes played? I looked at the notes to see the sharps, but in one or more cases (maybe the 5th fret pattern?), there seemed to be more sharps than are found in any major key. For reference, I understand intervals and the major keys, but I'm not yet familiar with the minor keys.

Sorry for the rookie question, just looking to be pointed in the right direction to learn more about what I'm seeing. Thanks for any help.

[RockyRacc00n]

Im a rookie myself and I am not sure if I understand everything you said....

But is this what you are asking?

You have a song, basically a sequence of notes. Those notes are certain intervals apart, one note to the next. As long as those notes are played in the same intervals, regardless of where you start the first note (therefore determining the key that you would be in), the song should sound like the same song. I think I am correct in saying the above....

But you are asking, you think you are playing these notes in the same intervals but depending on where you start, the song sounds different? Could it be because the B string is involved depending on where you start and apply the pattern you played elsewhere, and you are missing the fact B is tuned at a different interval? ... Meaning B is only 4 semitones above G, unlike the other strings (E to A is 5 semitones apart, same for A to D, D to G, and B to highE)

Sorry if I didn't understood and I am stating what you already know.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n

Im a rookie myself and I am not sure if I understand everything you said....

But is this what you are asking?

You have a song, basically a sequence of notes. Those notes are certain intervals apart, one note to the next. As long as those notes are played in the same intervals, regardless of where you start the first note (therefore determining the key that you would be in), the song should sound like the same song. I think I am correct in saying the above....

But you are asking, you think you are playing these notes in the same intervals but depending on where you start, the song sounds different? Could it be because the B string is involved depending on where you start and apply the pattern you played elsewhere, and you are missing the fact B is tuned at a different interval? ... Meaning B is only 4 semitones above G, unlike the other strings (E to A is 5 semitones apart, same for A to D, D to G, and B to highE)

Sorry if I didn't understood and I am stating what you already know.

I understand the song sounds different depending on where I start. I'm wondering if the song was written in G using particular notes, how it is the song can be played at all at different points on the fretboard, using completely different notes, and have it sound like the song. What concept allows that?

I'm also wondering if the song played as in the first position (key of G) is in a different key when played at the 7th and 5th positions, where the same pattern uses different notes. If so, how do I determine the key from the notes played?

And why is it that when I start on the D/G strings at different frets, the song sounds OK, but when I move to the bass (A/D, then E/A) strings at the same 9, 7, and 5 frets the song sounds worse, and barely recognizable.

I don't know enough to know the if impact of the B string's tuning differential is impacting my question, but I know the B string's not involved with respect to the part of my question as set out in the paragraph immediately above this one.

Thanks for trying!

[RockyRacc00n]

Are you familiar with the 12 notes in western music? Each note is one semitone apart and how far apart one note is from another is called an interval.
For example, E to A is 5 semitones apart. That's the reason why you fret the E string on the 5th fret to tune the A string.

1) C
2) C#
3) D
4) Eb
5) E
6) F
7) F#
8) G
9) G#
10) A
11) Bb
12) B

So for the song you are playing, are you aware of the notes being played and more importantly, the intervals between one note to the next? If not, I am wondering if you know how to figure that out by seeing where you are fretting.

Because if you knew then you should be able to play that same song in a different position but in the same sequence of intervals and have the song sound right. (same song, different key)

Again, sorry if I am repeating what you already know. Just trying to gauge what you may be missing.

And to answer your question on what key, I guess the simple answer would be, where does the song resolve at? (But I’m thinking, knowing what key it is in, shouldn’t have anything to do with making the song sound right or like the way it should sound).

[jfitz81]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I understand the song sounds different depending on where I start. I'm wondering if the song was written in G using particular notes, how it is the song can be played at all at different points on the fretboard, using completely different notes, and have it sound like the song. What concept allows that?

I think "transposition" would be the concept. As long as the interval between the notes is the same, it'll sound the "same" no matter where you play it.

Originally Posted by ChrisN

I'm also wondering if the song played as in the first position (key of G) is in a different key when played at the 7th and 5th positions, where the same pattern uses different notes. If so, how do I determine the key from the notes played?

If playing it in open position is the key of G, then playing it at the 5th fret--assuming you're on the same strings--would be the key of C (G plus five semitones). At the 7th fret would be key of D (G plus seven semitones).

Originally Posted by ChrisN

And why is it that when I start on the D/G strings at different frets, the song sounds OK, but when I move to the bass (A/D, then E/A) strings at the same 9, 7, and 5 frets the song sounds worse, and barely recognizable.

If I understand correctly, the song you're playing is only on two strings. Assuming you're in standard tuning (and all strings are in tune!), I don't know why those would sound different. All three pairs are tuned a fourth apart (or fifth, depending on which way you're looking).

[mr. beaumont]

Chris, what you are discovering is the concept of intervals--to explain most simply--the space between the notes. This is musical space--not necessarily physical space, as the guitar's tuning throws a little curveball at us in that department.

So basically, you can play a melody from any starting point, and assuming you keep the intervals the same, the melody stays the same. Try using your ear to play "happy birthday" from different random starting points.

Can you read music at all? It makes this concept so much easier to illustrate...

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n

Are you familiar with the 12 notes in western music? Each note is one semitone apart and how far apart one note is from another is called an interval.
For example, E to A is 5 semitones apart. That's the reason why you fret the E string on the 5th fret to tune the A string.

1) C
2) C#
3) D
4) Eb
5) E
6) F
7) F#
8) G
9) G#
10) A
11) Bb
12) B

So for the song you are playing, are you aware of the notes being played and more importantly, the intervals between one note to the next? If not, I am wondering if you know how to figure that out by seeing where you are fretting.

Because if you knew then you should be able to play that same song in a different position but in the same sequence of intervals and have the song sound right. (same song, different key)

Again, sorry if I am repeating what you already know. Just trying to gauge what you may be missing.

And to answer your question on what key, I guess the simple answer would be, where does the song resolve at? (But I’m thinking, knowing what key it is in, shouldn’t have anything to do with making the song sound right or like the way it should sound).

1. I understand the chromatic scale.

2. Re: your 3rd para: On the melody at issue, I relocated the starting point from open/1st position to the 9th fret, where I found the same notes as shown on the sheet music. So, I'm aware of the notes I'm playing, up to that point. I then proceeded to apply the same playing pattern/shape to the opening 5 notes, but played at the 7th, then 5th frets, where the notes bear no resemblance to the open position or 9th fret notes, but where the intervals are the same.

3. Sounds like you're saying when I play the same pattern, but with different notes, I'm in a different key, which I suspected, which drives my follow-on question, "how, looking at the notes I'm playing in the pattern at the 7th and 5th frets, do I determine what key I'm in?"

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by jfitz81

I think "transposition" would be the concept. As long as the interval between the notes is the same, it'll sound the "same" no matter where you play it.

If playing it in open position is the key of G, then playing it at the 5th fret--assuming you're on the same strings--would be the key of C (G plus five semitones). At the 7th fret would be key of D (G plus seven semitones).

If I understand correctly, the song you're playing is only on two strings. Assuming you're in standard tuning (and all strings are in tune!), I don't know why those would sound different. All three pairs are tuned a fourth apart (or fifth, depending on which way you're looking).

Your para 1 - I think I understand that part.

Your para 2 - I should clarify, when I play the same notated notes at the 9th position, I'm on different strings than I am when at the open/first position (where the first two notes are the open B and e strings). For example, at the 9th fret, the opening 2 notes are fretted B and e on the D and G strings, while at the 5th fret, and applying the same pattern (eg starting the first two notes on the fretted D and G strings, the starting 2 notes become G and C). Because I'm on different strings from the original B and e open strings for the first 2 notes, I'm not sure what key I'm in when I start the song at the 9th fret, using the D and G strings fretted to B and e.

Your para 3 - The song at issue is played on more than 2 strings - I mention 2 strings because I was trying to narrow my question/focus to only the 2 opening notes to avoid confusion.

[Erithon]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Sometimes there are stupid questions and this could be one of them.

There are indeed, but this is not one.

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Based on the above, can anyone tell me what concept I am observing so that I can drill down on it using the concept name to search for more?

As others has noted, this is called transposition. You are "transposing" the melody from one key to another. The notes are different, but the relationship (intervals) between the notes is the same.

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Why does the tune work using the pattern starting on the middle 2 strings, but deteriorates when moving the start to the A/D and E/A strings?

It shouldn't. Assuming you are in standard tuning, the only time this would happen is if you played it on the G and B strings. Keys do sound subtly different from one another (e.g. A major is traditionally considered a very "bright" key - this has to do with something called "even tempered tuning" and its relationship to the harmonic series, but this is more than you need to worry about right now), but nothing so extreme as what you describe.

Originally Posted by ChrisN

With respect to the fact that it works on the middle strings at different frets - am I observing the song being played in a different key from that in which was written (key of G)?

Yes, if it was originally played in the key of G using the open B and high E strings (or 9th frets of the D and G), then at the 7th fret of the D and G you would be in F and at the 5th fret in Eb (not D and C as jfitz81 wrote, because you have indeed changed strings from the B and E).

Originally Posted by ChrisN

If so, having played the notes, how do I determine the key I'm playing it in from the notes played? I looked at the notes to see the sharps, but in one or more cases (maybe the 5th fret pattern?), there seemed to be more sharps than are found in any major key. For reference, I understand intervals and the major keys, but I'm not yet familiar with the minor keys.

There are a variety of ways you could determine the new key. For example, since the 7th fret is a whole step (2 half steps) down from the 9th fret, then you can subtract a whole step from the original key (G) to find the new key (F).
Another way might be to know that the starting note of the melody is B, the third scale degree of the key of G. But the 7th fret of the D string is A, not B, so then you could ask what key has A as its third scale degree. And the answer is F.
More abstractly (if you didn't know the original key was G) to figure this out you'd need to have memorized your key signatures (knowing which keys have what number of flats and sharps).
As for a key with more sharps than any major key, you need to consider another concept called "enharmonic equivalency" which basically tells us that G# is the same as Ab. This allows us to write keys with a lot of sharps as keys with a more manageable number of flats. For example, rather than play in the key of C# (which has 7 sharps) we might think of the key of Db (which has 5 flats). It's not that C# major doesn't exist. It's just we generally don't talk about it that way because 5 flats is (usually) easier to work with than 7 sharps.
This also relates to something called the "relative minor." All major keys have a relative minor and vice versa. G major's relative minor is E minor. So your melody (which starts on two notes in the E minor chord) suggests a harmony of E minor and, perhaps, may suggest that your song is actually in E minor and not G Major (though they have the same notes - the difference is where "home" is).

[RockyRacc00n]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

1. I understand the chromatic scale.

Knowing the 12 notes of the chromatic scale vs understanding how other scales are constructed from these 12 notes are different things. But let's set that aside for now.

Originally Posted by ChrisN

2. Re: your 3rd para: On the melody at issue, I relocated the starting point from open/1st position to the 9th fret, where I found the same notes as shown on the sheet music. So, I'm aware of the notes I'm playing, up to that point. I then proceeded to apply the same playing pattern/shape to the opening 5 notes, but played at the 7th, then 5th frets, where the notes bear no resemblance to the open position or 9th fret notes, but where the intervals are the same.

Still not getting visual of what you are playing. How many notes are in the song you are playing, at least up to the part where it sounds right in one position but starts to sound not right in another? Can you tell us the notes you are playing when it sounds right? Or may be tell us the string and the fret numbers?

Originally Posted by ChrisN

3. Sounds like you're saying when I play the same pattern, but with different notes, I'm in a different key, which I suspected, which drives my follow-on question, "how, looking at the notes I'm playing in the pattern at the 7th and 5th frets, do I determine what key I'm in?"

I would dial this question back and ask, do you know how to construct a major scale in each key from the 12 notes of the chromatic scale?


But setting 1) and 3) aside, can you tell us what I asked in 2) to see if we get at this mystery =).

[jfitz81]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Your para 2 - I should clarify, when I play the same notated notes at the 9th position, I'm on different strings than I am when at the open/first position (where the first two notes are the open B and e strings). For example, at the 9th fret, the opening 2 notes are fretted B and e on the D and G strings, while at the 5th fret, and applying the same pattern (eg starting the first two notes on the fretted D and G strings, the starting 2 notes become G and C). Because I'm on different strings from the original B and e open strings for the first 2 notes, I'm not sure what key I'm in when I start the song at the 9th fret, using the D and G strings fretted to B and e..

Ah. Yup, as others have already mentioned, the same "pattern" generally won't work across strings, so long as your B string is involved in the original or "transposed" pattern. Those notes will be a half-step high or low, depending on where you're starting from.

EDIT: But to answer your question: if you're still starting with the same notes, you're still in the same key (maybe an octave higher/lower). If not, you could find the interval between the original starting notes and your new one, and then apply the same interval from G to find the new key.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Chris, what you are discovering is the concept of intervals--to explain most simply--the space between the notes. This is musical space--not necessarily physical space, as the guitar's tuning throws a little curveball at us in that department.

So basically, you can play a melody from any starting point, and assuming you keep the intervals the same, the melody stays the same. Try using your ear to play "happy birthday" from different random starting points.

Can you read music at all? It makes this concept so much easier to illustrate...

Your para 1 - that makes sense. My head's starting to hurt, but I think my issue is, "by what concept can the same pattern make similar sounds among different strings when playing notes different from the written page?" And the follow-on, "and why is it that the song sounds good/recognizable when started on the D/G strings (fretted as discussed), but breaks down (sounds bad, less recognizable) when I move the pattern's start from D/G strings to A/D, and then to E/A?"

Your para 2 - That first sentence is what I'm getting at. Intervals. I'm uncomprehending how intervals can work/function when we're talking different strings. Still unsure why it breaks down as I move the same interval pattern to the bass strings. I'll drill down on intervals and the theory behind them.

Your para 3 - I can read and play from simple notation, signatures/keys, slurs and some other indicia of how something should be played, but probably nothing too complicated.

[mr. beaumont]

I'll try to make a quick video to clear up #2. The big thing is to understand intervals are musical space--not physical space.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Erithon

There are indeed, but this is not one.


As others has noted, this is called transposition. You are "transposing" the melody from one key to another. The notes are different, but the relationship (intervals) between the notes is the same.


It shouldn't. Assuming you are in standard tuning, the only time this would happen is if you played it on the G and B strings. Keys do sound subtly different from one another (e.g. A major is traditionally considered a very "bright" key - this has to do with something called "even tempered tuning" and its relationship to the harmonic series, but this is more than you need to worry about right now), but nothing so extreme as what you describe.


Yes, if it was originally played in the key of G using the open B and high E strings (or 9th frets of the D and G), then at the 7th fret of the D and G you would be in F and at the 5th fret in Eb (not D and C as jfitz81 wrote, because you have indeed changed strings from the B and E).


There are a variety of ways you could determine the new key. For example, since the 7th fret is a whole step (2 half steps) down from the 9th fret, then you can subtract a whole step from the original key (G) to find the new key (F).
Another way might be to know that the starting note of the melody is B, the third scale degree of the key of G. But the 7th fret of the D string is A, not B, so then you could ask what key has A as its third scale degree. And the answer is F.
More abstractly (if you didn't know the original key was G) to figure this out you'd need to have memorized your key signatures (knowing which keys have what number of flats and sharps).
As for a key with more sharps than any major key, you need to consider another concept called "enharmonic equivalency" which basically tells us that G# is the same as Ab. This allows us to write keys with a lot of sharps as keys with a more manageable number of flats. For example, rather than play in the key of C# (which has 7 sharps) we might think of the key of Db (which has 5 flats). It's not that C# major doesn't exist. It's just we generally don't talk about it that way because 5 flats is (usually) easier to work with than 7 sharps.
This also relates to something called the "relative minor." All major keys have a relative minor and vice versa. G major's relative minor is E minor. So your melody (which starts on two notes in the E minor chord) suggests a harmony of E minor and, perhaps, may suggest that your song is actually in E minor and not G Major (though they have the same notes - the difference is where "home" is).

Thanks for the helpful info. I'm going to have to spend some more time rereading and working through your last paragraph re: determining the key - I recognize about 25% of what you're saying from prior study, and I'll need to work through it. I feel like I've finished my high school algebra course and mistakenly walked into some graduate-level math class by mistake.

[mr. beaumont]

Here's a simple starting point...