The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 12-29-2020, 10:14 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Kirkland, WA USA
Posts: 1,390
Default

The half-step modulation seemed to be most popular in the Tin Pan Alley heyday. It's not at all common in classical music, so I think it is a more modern thing.

I've always seen it as a 'lazy' way to inject a change. While I love key changes, I have so far avoided ever writing a half-step modulation. To my ears, most of the time it sounds awkward.

Jazz that is based on standards will have a lot of these. I've always found that using partial chords and barres works best, and those are the kinds of chord forms that work well in jazz anyway.
__________________
-Gordon

1978 Larrivee L-26 cutaway
1988 Larrivee L-28 cutaway
2006 Larrivee L03-R
2009 Larrivee LV03-R
2016 Irvin SJ cutaway
2020 Irvin SJ cutaway (build thread)
K+K, Dazzo, Schatten/ToneDexter


Notable Journey website
Facebook page

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. - Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-29-2020, 10:32 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,007
Default

Since the title of the the thread is "mid-song key changes," not just modulations, I can think of two songs where the choruses and the verses are in different keys: "Good Day Sunshine" by the Beatles and "Your Precious Love" by Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell. Anything else belong on that list?

And there are probably lots where there's a key change for the bridge. "Here there and Everywhere" and "Dream a Little Dream of Me" are two that come to mind. With the latter, I've heard versions where, relative to the verse, the bridge drops a minor third and others where it drops a major third. They both sound fine if the arrangement elegantly works its way back to the verse.
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:28 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,462
Default

Check what David Wilcox does at about the 1:52 mark.

__________________
Jim
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce


SoundCloud link
Spotify
YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:36 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Check what David Wilcox does...
Wow. I don't think my right arm's long enough to do that.
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-29-2020, 11:51 PM
endpin endpin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 379
Default

James Taylor has been doing the "Capo-Slide" on his song "Your Smiling Face" since 1977.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-30-2020, 01:06 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by endpin View Post
James Taylor has been doing the "Capo-Slide" on his song "Your Smiling Face" since 1977.
He's got a whole band behind him, so he can lay out for a bar or two. Still cool, though.
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-30-2020, 03:33 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eatswodo View Post
Otherwise known as a 'Manilow'
Yep. Ol' Barry was King of the Truck Drivers. Not the first to do it, but got up there in the head of the convoy...
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-30-2020, 03:36 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,451
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by morningside View Post
You don't need to be a musician to know that. Just know the alphabet.
Sure. But some guitarists (present company excepted of course ) still think of the fretboard direction towards the bridge as "down", and towards the nut as "up". Proper musicians (like us) think in pitch, not in physical direction or position.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-03-2021, 09:14 AM
nightchef nightchef is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Boston
Posts: 343
Default

You can’t avoid barre chords altogether with a half-step modulation, but you can minimize them by placing a capo so as to put each half of the song in a key where you’ll be playing a mix of barre and open chords — for instance, say the song starts in D and modulates up to Eb, place the capo on the third fret so it starts in B and modulates up to C. (The best exact approach will depend on the harmonic content of the song, of course—the strategy I just mentioned won’t be much help if the song never goes to the IV chord!)

Brent, about songs with verse and chorus in different keys — my favorite example is “Pleasant Valley Sunday”, which has a verse in A, and then shifts to C for the chorus — and then halfway through the chorus modulates a second time to E, to set up a V-I resolution back to the verse. Just to put the cherry on the sundae, the last time through the chorus, the shift is from C to F. That King kid had some tricks up her sleeve.

And then of course, there’s the ultimate multi-modulation song, “Good Vibrations”.
__________________
Martin HD-28
Eastman E10OM
Guild D50
Martin D12X1AE
LaPatrie CW Concert
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-03-2021, 09:29 AM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 39,983
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
He's got a whole band behind him, so he can lay out for a bar or two. Still cool, though.
Hi Brent
I've seen both James Taylor and David Wilcox move a capo mid song for modulating when playing solo (no band to cover for them).

The response in the room when David Wilcox did this was an audible 'ooo' on the part of the audience (and a smattering of applause). I attended one of his workshops and it came up as a question (how do to do this smoothly).





__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-05-2021, 01:34 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightchef View Post
Brent, about songs with verse and chorus in different keys — my favorite example is “Pleasant Valley Sunday”...
Yep, that's a good 'un.
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-09-2021, 10:22 PM
Songbook19 Songbook19 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North America
Posts: 13
Default

I just use a “glider capo.” Didn’t know they even existed until a couple of years ago. Just reach up with the thumb of your fretting hand and roll it forward or back. And while they don’t work as well coming off the nut (going from uncapo’d to capo at the first fret) anywhere else they work okay. Not great but okay, especially if there’s only one change to deal with.
__________________
Alvin Tostig
________________
2010 Martin DCPA1
2014 Taylor 522e
2010 Epiphone Masterbilt AJ500M
1983 Hondo 12-string Gibson Dove knockoff
Fishman Loudbox Mini
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-14-2021, 04:33 PM
Fatfinger McGee Fatfinger McGee is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 306
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Brent
I've seen both James Taylor and David Wilcox move a capo mid song for modulating when playing solo (no band to cover for them).

The response in the room when David Wilcox did this was an audible 'ooo' on the part of the audience (and a smattering of applause). I attended one of his workshops and it came up as a question (how do to do this smoothly).
I was in the audience when David Wilcox did it and was one of the audible 'ooo's. He uses all kinds of capo tricks to get his tunings, iirc. On a related 'audience impressing' note, with all the focus on his fine songwriting and guitar skills, he doesn't get enough credit for his soulful, funny, highly entertaining patter. I'd pay just to hear him talk between songs.

Somewhere on youtube is a Tommy Emmanuel workshop video showing him throwing his capo. And he basically says, yeah it's 100% an entertaining gimmick, I'm an entertainer.

As far as key changes go, there's a long list of songs that wouldn't be the same without them. Kermit the Frog (Rainbow Connection) and Bon Jovi (you know the one) approve this message. Personally I use a combination of barre chords and partial chord shapes vs moving a capo, but maybe I'll rethink, could be fun.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-14-2021, 07:08 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 39,983
Default David Wilcox thoughts…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatfinger McGee View Post
…On a related 'audience impressing' note, with all the focus on his fine songwriting and guitar skills, he doesn't get enough credit for his soulful, funny, highly entertaining patter. I'd pay just to hear him talk between songs.
Hi Ff
He's often funnier live because when he's being recorded he sef-censors a bit more.

I've never heard him become obnoxious, or insulting…but he can really be funny during a 2½ hour seminar.



__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-16-2021, 04:23 PM
mawmow mawmow is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Quebec city, Qc, Canada
Posts: 1,208
Default

Very interesting topic indeed as a fingerstylist !

I am working on a piece that brings in an unsual, kind of ackward,
fingering to keep the feeling of the main melody while changing key !

I also once was faced with a female singer that asked for a key change
to match her voicing range : that was easy : I capoed so that the fingering
of both hands remained !

But what happens with a singer getting to a lower range as he ages ?
I was absolutely blowned away by how Leonard Cohen voice got
bassier as he aged !

It makes me remember of a lesson where Fred Sokolow explains how
some pieces are built on the circle of fifth : Follow the melody, guys !!!

So I am amazed about the tricks you found as used by other players
on live play : It makes me find myself a better player I used to think I am !!!
__________________
Needed some nylons, a wide range of acoustics and some weirdos to be happy...
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=