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  #16  
Old 02-21-2019, 02:45 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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Aaahh, shark! That's too close.
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  #17  
Old 02-21-2019, 11:04 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default The downsides of mirrorless...

The new mirrorless cameras have a big following. In photography, new things always get the attention. There's no gear from 1959, such as a Strat or Les Paul, that's still prized and used daily by working pros. Still, there are reasons not to buy mirrorless quite yet:

-- the viewfinder. Electronic view finders get better with every generation, but they still have limited ability to represent bright highlights and dark shadows. When I demo'ed a Fuji XT-1 on a sunny street at noon, those bright and dark details were washed out. And that was in Seattle- I work around Denver, where the brightness range is at least two stops greater. That's the beauty of the X100's hybrid VF: flick a switch and you can see the scene in true colors, which is what I prefer. Each generation of EVFs gets a little bit better, but most aren't there yet.

-- battery life. In a mirrorless camera, the battery is working all the time, reading the sensor and creating images on the EVF and rear screen. Expect your batteries to last about a third as long as with a DSLR.

I have a Fuji for casual snapshots and adapted lenses. It works well, but the shooting experience is far better, IMHO, with my DSLR Pentax. The DSLR offers me stablization with every lens I use, plus a big, realistic, real-time, no-battery-drain viewfinder.

The DSLR body is larger, but I compensate by using smaller lenses with smaller glass and apertures. Often when mirrorless coverts gripe about the size of their old DSLR (usually a Canon), they're really talking about the size and weight of f2.8 zooms they attached to them. Those lenses don't shrink much in mirrorless form. The good news is that with useable ISOs up to 1000 and beyond, those fast lenses aren't needed anymore.
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2019, 07:31 AM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman View Post
Aaahh, shark! That's too close.
It is interesting how at no time during either of the two " No cage" shark dives I went on, did I feel at all threatened . Admittedly they were Reef Sharks and known to not be particularly aggressive towards humans. (unless you are bleeding or thrashing on the surface)

I posted this over in the Photo's tread also. This female Reef Aprox. 9 -10 ft swam slowly up to about 3 feet and stopped dead still for about 3-5 seconds




couple more

This one is about 2 ft away.



This one came right over the top of me and actually bumped the extended arm light on my camera, which sits about 10-12 inches above my head, I think with its tail, just the instant after I snapped this shot

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  #19  
Old 02-22-2019, 07:47 AM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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The new mirrorless cameras have a big following. In photography, new things always get the attention. There's no gear from 1959, such as a Strat or Les Paul, that's still prized and used daily by working pros. Still, there are reasons not to buy mirrorless quite yet:

-- the viewfinder. Electronic view finders get better with every generation, but they still have limited ability to represent bright highlights and dark shadows. When I demo'ed a Fuji XT-1 on a sunny street at noon, those bright and dark details were washed out. And that was in Seattle- I work around Denver, where the brightness range is at least two stops greater. That's the beauty of the X100's hybrid VF: flick a switch and you can see the scene in true colors, which is what I prefer. Each generation of EVFs gets a little bit better, but most aren't there yet.

-- battery life. In a mirrorless camera, the battery is working all the time, reading the sensor and creating images on the EVF and rear screen. Expect your batteries to last about a third as long as with a DSLR.

I have a Fuji for casual snapshots and adapted lenses. It works well, but the shooting experience is far better, IMHO, with my DSLR Pentax. The DSLR offers me stablization with every lens I use, plus a big, realistic, real-time, no-battery-drain viewfinder.

The DSLR body is larger, but I compensate by using smaller lenses with smaller glass and apertures. Often when mirrorless coverts gripe about the size of their old DSLR (usually a Canon), they're really talking about the size and weight of f2.8 zooms they attached to them. Those lenses don't shrink much in mirrorless form. The good news is that with useable ISOs up to 1000 and beyond, those fast lenses aren't needed anymore.
You're talking about mirrorless from a few years ago. They used to have those cons, but not any more.

I have had a DSLR since 2005 and still have a Nikon D750 full frame DSLR. But, I got a Sony A7iii last summer and those cons you listed are things of the past. Battery life and the EVF are superb.

I haven't used the latest Fuji, but the camera you are referring to is two generations old already.
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  #20  
Old 02-25-2019, 11:36 AM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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Originally Posted by Birdbrain View Post
The new mirrorless cameras have a big following. In photography, new things always get the attention. There's no gear from 1959, such as a Strat or Les Paul, that's still prized and used daily by working pros. Still, there are reasons not to buy mirrorless quite yet:

-- the viewfinder. Electronic view finders get better with every generation, but they still have limited ability to represent bright highlights and dark shadows. When I demo'ed a Fuji XT-1 on a sunny street at noon, those bright and dark details were washed out. And that was in Seattle- I work around Denver, where the brightness range is at least two stops greater. That's the beauty of the X100's hybrid VF: flick a switch and you can see the scene in true colors, which is what I prefer. Each generation of EVFs gets a little bit better, but most aren't there yet.

-- battery life. In a mirrorless camera, the battery is working all the time, reading the sensor and creating images on the EVF and rear screen. Expect your batteries to last about a third as long as with a DSLR.

I have a Fuji for casual snapshots and adapted lenses. It works well, but the shooting experience is far better, IMHO, with my DSLR Pentax. The DSLR offers me stablization with every lens I use, plus a big, realistic, real-time, no-battery-drain viewfinder.

The DSLR body is larger, but I compensate by using smaller lenses with smaller glass and apertures. Often when mirrorless coverts gripe about the size of their old DSLR (usually a Canon), they're really talking about the size and weight of f2.8 zooms they attached to them. Those lenses don't shrink much in mirrorless form. The good news is that with useable ISOs up to 1000 and beyond, those fast lenses aren't needed anymore.
Good post, and thanks for all the thoughts!

You're quite right about the EVF at least as it applies to my now 5-year-old X-T1, the image in the viewfinder is far more contrasty that the actual capture, despite the sales pitch that you see the actual exposure in the EVF. Is the X-T3 that much better? I hear it is, but not sure it eliminates what you're talking about. It is nice however to be able to see the exposure and DOF immediately and be able to correct it by hand with a dial on top of the camera. It's very fast and intuitive. And WRT to optical viewfinders, well the captures from my 6D don't look like what I see in that viewfinder either, so there's translation either way. But I can see why folks like opticals better, it does feel so much more natural and organic. When I picked up a Sony A7III it was just so...electronic, and so much happening in the EVF with focus highlighting and everything else they throw at you. I had a strong initial negative reaction to the experience of that camera.

Battery life is bad on the Fuji X series, but is reputed to be far better on the Sony A series. They just use a much bigger battery. But yes, the EVF and the LCD are much more of a power suck. But batteries are cheap, light, and easy to swap out.

I would disagree with caveats on the gripe about size. My 6D is small for a full-frame mirrorless, and it feels comically large after using the X-T1 for a few weeks. While it's true that full-frame mirrorless have just as large and heavy of lenses as a DSLR (or very close), what's nice for me about the Fuji system is that the ASP-C lenses are much smaller, and much cheaper than full-frame lenses for mirrorless or DSLR cameras. And the sharpness of these much more modern lenses is incredible compared to the very nice L glass I have for my Canon. My Fujinon 56mm 1.2 is dramatically sharper than any L glass I've ever had. The R lenses from Canon are said to be on this level, but I haven't seen an EF mount lens that can touch it. I was genuinely surprised by this, difference, it's not subtle. You certainly don't get the same shallowness in your DOF with APS-C, but with fast primes I get as much as I'd ever want. The overall size experience with a mirrorless APS-C is quite different than a full-frame DSLR. For me I want fast lenses as I shoot in the city at night a lot, and I love the shallow DOF for portraits, etc.

Good discussion.
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  #21  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:46 PM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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Good post, and thanks for all the thoughts!

You're quite right about the EVF at least as it applies to my now 5-year-old X-T1, the image in the viewfinder is far more contrasty that the actual capture, despite the sales pitch that you see the actual exposure in the EVF. Is the X-T3 that much better? I hear it is, but not sure it eliminates what you're talking about. It is nice however to be able to see the exposure and DOF immediately and be able to correct it by hand with a dial on top of the camera. It's very fast and intuitive. And WRT to optical viewfinders, well the captures from my 6D don't look like what I see in that viewfinder either, so there's translation either way. But I can see why folks like opticals better, it does feel so much more natural and organic. When I picked up a Sony A7III it was just so...electronic, and so much happening in the EVF with focus highlighting and everything else they throw at you. I had a strong initial negative reaction to the experience of that camera.

Battery life is bad on the Fuji X series, but is reputed to be far better on the Sony A series. They just use a much bigger battery. But yes, the EVF and the LCD are much more of a power suck. But batteries are cheap, light, and easy to swap out.

I would disagree with caveats on the gripe about size. My 6D is small for a full-frame mirrorless, and it feels comically large after using the X-T1 for a few weeks. While it's true that full-frame mirrorless have just as large and heavy of lenses as a DSLR (or very close), what's nice for me about the Fuji system is that the ASP-C lenses are much smaller, and much cheaper than full-frame lenses for mirrorless or DSLR cameras. And the sharpness of these much more modern lenses is incredible compared to the very nice L glass I have for my Canon. My Fujinon 56mm 1.2 is dramatically sharper than any L glass I've ever had. The R lenses from Canon are said to be on this level, but I haven't seen an EF mount lens that can touch it. I was genuinely surprised by this, difference, it's not subtle. You certainly don't get the same shallowness in your DOF with APS-C, but with fast primes I get as much as I'd ever want. The overall size experience with a mirrorless APS-C is quite different than a full-frame DSLR. For me I want fast lenses as I shoot in the city at night a lot, and I love the shallow DOF for portraits, etc.

Good discussion.
The EVF in the Sony has several modes and most of the things that were on when you used it can be turned off.
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2019, 12:30 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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The EVF in the Sony has several modes and most of the things that were on when you used it can be turned off.
Good to know. Yeah, they're all really customizable. It was jarring coming from an older DSLR, but after using the Fuji for a few weeks I think I may not have quite the same reaction, as I'm getting used to the focus tracking over hundreds of points. That said, I definitely prefer what Fuji is doing with the analog controls for ISO, shutter, and aperture. Lots of menus in those Sonys.

Great images though, no question.
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2019, 04:23 PM
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I definitely prefer what Fuji is doing with the analog controls for ISO, shutter, and aperture. Lots of menus in those Sonys.
Sony quite rightly gets dinged for a labyrinthine menu system. As I'm now on my third iteration, I've become quite proficient with it, and have my a6500 set up so that I can get to everything I need pretty quickly.

I love the 'old school' knobs on the Fuji, with the ability to see settings at a glance, but, realistically, I've got what I need. I shoot aperture priority the vast majority of the time, and have one control wheel to set the aperture, and the other for exposure comp.
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:07 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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Sony quite rightly gets dinged for a labyrinthine menu system. As I'm now on my third iteration, I've become quite proficient with it, and have my a6500 set up so that I can get to everything I need pretty quickly.

I love the 'old school' knobs on the Fuji, with the ability to see settings at a glance, but, realistically, I've got what I need. I shoot aperture priority the vast majority of the time, and have one control wheel to set the aperture, and the other for exposure comp.
Yep, stick with your great camera for sure! I just was so intrigued by Fujifilm's camera that the X-T1 seemed like a great way to get into a super high-quality system without much cost. I'm feeling very likely to stick with the system.
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Old 03-03-2019, 09:33 AM
Tony Burns Tony Burns is offline
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My old Sony Mavica still works ( thou the discs are a PITA )
my wife wants me to discard it -but I still think its a cool camera , even thou it doesnt get used nay more !
Have been thinking of a new Digital -I find this post interesting -

what is a good cheap camera these days ? not fond of my cell phone
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Old 03-03-2019, 10:18 AM
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what is a good cheap camera these days ? not fond of my cell phone
Define ‘cheap’
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Old 03-03-2019, 05:18 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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My old Sony Mavica still works ( thou the discs are a PITA )
my wife wants me to discard it -but I still think its a cool camera , even thou it doesnt get used nay more !
Have been thinking of a new Digital -I find this post interesting -

what is a good cheap camera these days ? not fond of my cell phone
Try anything two generations old. Digital cameras depreciate like rocks thrown into a pond. Sensor performance and image quality took a big jump about five years ago, and the advances since then strain human perception to see. Camera review sites sites resort to enlarging five percent of the frame, underexposed, to reveal digital grain and quality differences. You really do pay to be a perfectionist in this game.
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Old 03-03-2019, 05:35 PM
Birdbrain Birdbrain is offline
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Default A contrarian suggestion

I do like Fuji's X-cameras. I own one, and use it mostly as a convenient one-pound carry along. But when the purpose is making photographs, I'm happier with a DSLR and optical viewfinder.

Let me put in a word for Pentax. Yes, they're still in business, though few are sold in the US. Every camera body they make is weather-sealed, along with many current lenses. The K-5 and K-3 models, and the full frame K-1, are built like tanks. The menus and controls are very ergonomic. I get wonderful results with older manual and autofocus Pentax lenses, all stabilized by the camera body's sensor. Some of these first-gen lenses cost me less than $75, used.

One choice, as I see is, is to invest in the Fuji model, buying excellent but pricey lenses to fit a camera body that will soon be replaced by a new one with less of the weakness of EVIL cameras (Electronic Viewfinder, Interchangable Lenses). And there will always be a better one coming, with a VF that makes the old ones look lame. It's a fast-developing technology; some are always drawn to that. If I was a camera manufacturer, that's the business model that leads to profits.

Or to buy a DSLR that's a fully developed product at the height of its technology, and collect new and old and "obsolete" lenses that I can use for many years. It works for me, and I'm certainly cheap.
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Old 03-03-2019, 05:43 PM
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Or you could go mirrorless, and use legacy lenses with an adapter.

It's great to have choices.

Shot with my Sony a6500 and a Minolta MD Rokkor 135/3.5.
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Old 03-03-2019, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Burns View Post
My old Sony Mavica still works ( thou the discs are a PITA )
my wife wants me to discard it -but I still think its a cool camera , even thou it doesnt get used nay more !
Have been thinking of a new Digital -I find this post interesting -

what is a good cheap camera these days ? not fond of my cell phone
i consider DP reviews, and Imaging resource a good place to start, i didnt get on the DSLR bandwagon when they took off in the market, i stayed with film for awhile until i got 350XT- currently i use a canon T1i (bought used) and does all i need it to do, when i do upgrade ill probably stay with a mirrored canon, reason being is i have some nice lenses, but in your case, you have more of an option to go mirror or mirror less, dont be afraid of the used market, you get to see and try what it is, places like adorama and bh photo also have used and refurbs, most of the time, you take a digital image and its good to go, simple edits are available, but any image i want to show, print, etc- i always process it thru photoshop
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