#46
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Joe Cocker's Version of "With A Little Help From My Friends"
3/4 or 6/8? 1. "This was recorded in 3/4 time - a waltz. The Beatles original version was in traditional 4/4 time." -- http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=454 2. "Joe Cocker's version of 'With a Little Help from My Friends' was a radical re-arrangement of the original, in a slower, 6/8 meter." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_a_...rom_My_Friends So is it 3/4 or 6/8, and why is there this disagreement on a number of these songs as to the correct time signature? |
#47
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A big part of the disagreement is that several time signatures are equivalent. 12/8 can be legitimately written as 4/4 by using quarter note triplets (3 eight notes to the quarter note). Even the Beatles version of that song can be termed as 12/8; there is a swing to the vocal phrasing rather than being straight eight notes. The choice is up to the writer, or in the absence of the original music the transcriber, as to which time signature best fits the song and is most helpful for the musician playing. I could see that song being notated 3/4 or 6/8 and either one being valid. I would probably transcribe Joe Cocker's version in 3/4 time to reflect the slow tempo, vocal phrasing and chord changes more to my liking, and others would do it a different way by their own reasoning and that's fine. I don't think there's a rule written down anywhere that says it must be one way and one way only.
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#48
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One could technically argue that 12/8 is the same as 4/4 written with triplets, but I don't see them as equal. When I'm transcribing, I'll default to 12/8 over 4/4 with triplets every time. It's easier to both write and read. Triplets in 4/4 (or other even time signature) require both tied-together 8th notes and a semi-circular bracket (with a 3 in it) over/under the notes of every triplet. That gets old to write and to read. Also with transcription software, you have to designate that you are entering triplets repeatedly and it slows you down. |
#49
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I tried to read all the answers given above but I might have missed 1 or 2 so please forgive me if it has already been said but...
Besides the obvious writing differences (quarter notes in 3/4, eights notes in 6/8)... In 3/4 time there is 1 accent, on first beat. in 6/8 time there are 2 accents, on beat 1 and beat 4 BUT the difference to a two bars of 3/4 time is that in 6/8 time the accent on beat 1 SHOULD BE stronger that the accent on beat four. So to think of a bar of 6/8 time as two bars of 3/4 time joined together is simply wrong. 3/4 time counting/accent is: Strong/2/3-strong/2/3 etc 6/8 time counting/accent would be something like: strong/2/3/not so strong/5/6 Hope I make sense...
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#50
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6/8 and 3/4 are VERY different, not just a matter of transcribing convention. Try playing 6/8 rhythm over a melody played in 3/4 or vice-versa and you see they are unrelated.
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#51
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#52
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If, with 6/8, the 1/2/3 - 4/5/6 is done as: strong/2/3/ - not so strong/5/6 Then with 12/8, the 1/2/3 - 4/5/6 - 7/8/9 -10/11/12 is done as what? In other words, how would you fill in the blanks here: Strong/2/3/ - Accent Description?/5/6/ - Accent Description?/8/9/ - Accent Description?/11/12 - - - |
#53
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"12/8 (compound quadruple meter) has four beats divided into three equal parts, i.e., a primary accent on the first quaver, a secondary accent on the seventh quaver, and subordinate accents on the fourth and tenth quavers."
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#54
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Came across this website.
http://www.musicarrangers.com/star-theory/t02.htm
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#55
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In other words.. the first beat of the bar, regardless of the time signature (eg: 2/4, 3/8, 9/12, 5/4, 7/8 ..whatever, does not matter), is where the strongest accent ALWAYS falls, unless otherwise stated by the composer.
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#56
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The deciding factor for me is how easy is the music to read in the end. 4/4 with strings of "3" triplet brackets is messy and time-consuming (as you say) to both write and read; should be 12/8. But 12/8 with very few complete triplets (eg like the average slow blues), and I'd probably prefer 4/4, maybe with a swing or shuffle indication at the beginning.
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#57
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The idea of 6/8 "sounding like two bars of 3/4" (as I mentioned myself) presupposes the second of the pair having a different sounding downbeat. In pop/rock it would usually be marked by the snare, not the bass. IOW, the beats clearly fall into groups of 6, arranged as 2 groups of 3. (And aurally the snare hit might well have a stronger accent than the bass hit on beat 1.) Classically (AFAIK) that should be 6/8 even if very slow. I like the idea of 6/4 for extremely slow 6/8 (something like Joe Cocker's With a Little Help From My Friends), but I don't know if that's an acceptable convention.
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#58
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IOW, you're making a different point from the one under discussion .
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#59
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#60
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The 3/4 versus 6/8 debate is mostly a notation issue, not a playing one. In some classic cases, it can be obvious which one it is. In less classic cases, not so much. If you can't hear the difference, it's fine and there's nothing wrong with you.
This issue is similar to the use of different clefs. Why not use only one clef? It's all a matter of notation. |