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  #46  
Old 05-04-2013, 10:55 PM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Joe Cocker's Version of "With A Little Help From My Friends"

3/4 or 6/8?

1. "This was recorded in 3/4 time - a waltz. The Beatles original version was in traditional 4/4 time."

-- http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=454


2. "Joe Cocker's version of 'With a Little Help from My Friends' was a radical re-arrangement of the original, in a slower, 6/8 meter."

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_a_...rom_My_Friends


So is it 3/4 or 6/8, and why is there this disagreement on a number of these songs as to the correct time signature?

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  #47  
Old 05-05-2013, 03:44 AM
clintj clintj is offline
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A big part of the disagreement is that several time signatures are equivalent. 12/8 can be legitimately written as 4/4 by using quarter note triplets (3 eight notes to the quarter note). Even the Beatles version of that song can be termed as 12/8; there is a swing to the vocal phrasing rather than being straight eight notes. The choice is up to the writer, or in the absence of the original music the transcriber, as to which time signature best fits the song and is most helpful for the musician playing. I could see that song being notated 3/4 or 6/8 and either one being valid. I would probably transcribe Joe Cocker's version in 3/4 time to reflect the slow tempo, vocal phrasing and chord changes more to my liking, and others would do it a different way by their own reasoning and that's fine. I don't think there's a rule written down anywhere that says it must be one way and one way only.
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  #48  
Old 05-05-2013, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clintj View Post
...The choice is up to the writer, or in the absence of the original music the transcriber…
Hi CLintJ...

One could technically argue that 12/8 is the same as 4/4 written with triplets, but I don't see them as equal. When I'm transcribing, I'll default to 12/8 over 4/4 with triplets every time.

It's easier to both write and read. Triplets in 4/4 (or other even time signature) require both tied-together 8th notes and a semi-circular bracket (with a 3 in it) over/under the notes of every triplet. That gets old to write and to read.

Also with transcription software, you have to designate that you are entering triplets repeatedly and it slows you down.

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  #49  
Old 05-05-2013, 07:35 AM
Picking Moose Picking Moose is offline
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I tried to read all the answers given above but I might have missed 1 or 2 so please forgive me if it has already been said but...

Besides the obvious writing differences (quarter notes in 3/4, eights notes in 6/8)...

In 3/4 time there is 1 accent, on first beat.
in 6/8 time there are 2 accents, on beat 1 and beat 4 BUT the difference to a two bars of 3/4 time is that in 6/8 time the accent on beat 1 SHOULD BE stronger that the accent on beat four.

So to think of a bar of 6/8 time as two bars of 3/4 time joined together is simply wrong.

3/4 time counting/accent is: Strong/2/3-strong/2/3 etc
6/8 time counting/accent would be something like: strong/2/3/not so strong/5/6

Hope I make sense...
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  #50  
Old 05-05-2013, 07:40 AM
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6/8 and 3/4 are VERY different, not just a matter of transcribing convention. Try playing 6/8 rhythm over a melody played in 3/4 or vice-versa and you see they are unrelated.
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  #51  
Old 05-05-2013, 07:55 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Picking Moose View Post
I tried to read all the answers given above but I might have missed 1 or 2 so please forgive me if it has already been said but...

Besides the obvious writing differences (quarter notes in 3/4, eights notes in 6/8)...

In 3/4 time there is 1 accent, on first beat.
in 6/8 time there are 2 accents, on beat 1 and beat 4 BUT the difference to a two bars of 3/4 time is that in 6/8 time the accent on beat 1 SHOULD BE stronger that the accent on beat four.

So to think of a bar of 6/8 time as two bars of 3/4 time joined together is simply wrong.

3/4 time counting/accent is: Strong/2/3-strong/2/3 etc
6/8 time counting/accent would be something like: strong/2/3/not so strong/5/6

Hope I make sense...
You do make sense...but music at it's best is a living breathing thing. I don't thing any accent "should be" anything. I like to pepper music with accents in different places depending on how I'm feeling the music. Music sounds really stiff to me when it's played in strict 6/8 or 3/4 time.
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  #52  
Old 05-05-2013, 08:30 AM
Mellow_D Mellow_D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Picking Moose View Post
In 3/4 time there is 1 accent, on first beat.
in 6/8 time there are 2 accents, on beat 1 and beat 4 BUT the difference to a two bars of 3/4 time is that in 6/8 time the accent on beat 1 SHOULD BE stronger that the accent on beat four.

So to think of a bar of 6/8 time as two bars of 3/4 time joined together is simply wrong.

3/4 time counting/accent is: Strong/2/3-strong/2/3 etc
6/8 time counting/accent would be something like: strong/2/3/not so strong/5/6
What about 12/8 time ... how would you use the "strong" and "not so stong" ... as in, how would you describe the accents with 12/8 time?

If, with 6/8, the 1/2/3 - 4/5/6 is done as: strong/2/3/ - not so strong/5/6

Then with 12/8, the 1/2/3 - 4/5/6 - 7/8/9 -10/11/12 is done as what?

In other words, how would you fill in the blanks here:

Strong/2/3/ - Accent Description?/5/6/ - Accent Description?/8/9/ - Accent Description?/11/12


- - -
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  #53  
Old 05-05-2013, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
What about 12/8 time ... how would you use the "strong" and "not so stong" ... as in, how would you describe the accents with 12/8 time?
Then with 12/8, the 1/2/3 - 4/5/6 - 7/8/9 -10/11/12 is done as what?
- - -
"12/8 (compound quadruple meter) has four beats divided into three equal parts, i.e., a primary accent on the first quaver, a secondary accent on the seventh quaver, and subordinate accents on the fourth and tenth quavers."
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  #54  
Old 05-05-2013, 08:54 AM
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Came across this website.
http://www.musicarrangers.com/star-theory/t02.htm
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  #55  
Old 05-05-2013, 09:52 AM
Picking Moose Picking Moose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow_D View Post
What about 12/8 time ... how would you use the "strong" and "not so stong" ... as in, how would you describe the accents with 12/8 time?

If, with 6/8, the 1/2/3 - 4/5/6 is done as: strong/2/3/ - not so strong/5/6

Then with 12/8, the 1/2/3 - 4/5/6 - 7/8/9 -10/11/12 is done as what?

In other words, how would you fill in the blanks here:

Strong/2/3/ - Accent Description?/5/6/ - Accent Description?/8/9/ - Accent Description?/11/12


- - -
12/8 would be: strong/2/3/not so strong/5/6/not so strong/8/9/not so strong/11/12

In other words.. the first beat of the bar, regardless of the time signature (eg: 2/4, 3/8, 9/12, 5/4, 7/8 ..whatever, does not matter), is where the strongest accent ALWAYS falls, unless otherwise stated by the composer.
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  #56  
Old 05-05-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi CLintJ...

One could technically argue that 12/8 is the same as 4/4 written with triplets, but I don't see them as equal. When I'm transcribing, I'll default to 12/8 over 4/4 with triplets every time.
IMO it depends on how evident the triplet feel is. There could be a grey area in between clear 12/8 and a swing/shuffle 4/4.
The deciding factor for me is how easy is the music to read in the end. 4/4 with strings of "3" triplet brackets is messy and time-consuming (as you say) to both write and read; should be 12/8.
But 12/8 with very few complete triplets (eg like the average slow blues), and I'd probably prefer 4/4, maybe with a swing or shuffle indication at the beginning.
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  #57  
Old 05-05-2013, 10:07 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Picking Moose View Post
I tried to read all the answers given above but I might have missed 1 or 2 so please forgive me if it has already been said but...

Besides the obvious writing differences (quarter notes in 3/4, eights notes in 6/8)...

In 3/4 time there is 1 accent, on first beat.
in 6/8 time there are 2 accents, on beat 1 and beat 4 BUT the difference to a two bars of 3/4 time is that in 6/8 time the accent on beat 1 SHOULD BE stronger that the accent on beat four.

So to think of a bar of 6/8 time as two bars of 3/4 time joined together is simply wrong.

3/4 time counting/accent is: Strong/2/3-strong/2/3 etc
6/8 time counting/accent would be something like: strong/2/3/not so strong/5/6

Hope I make sense...
Perfectly .
The idea of 6/8 "sounding like two bars of 3/4" (as I mentioned myself) presupposes the second of the pair having a different sounding downbeat. In pop/rock it would usually be marked by the snare, not the bass. IOW, the beats clearly fall into groups of 6, arranged as 2 groups of 3. (And aurally the snare hit might well have a stronger accent than the bass hit on beat 1.)
Classically (AFAIK) that should be 6/8 even if very slow.
I like the idea of 6/4 for extremely slow 6/8 (something like Joe Cocker's With a Little Help From My Friends), but I don't know if that's an acceptable convention.
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  #58  
Old 05-05-2013, 10:13 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post
You do make sense...but music at it's best is a living breathing thing. I don't thing any accent "should be" anything. I like to pepper music with accents in different places depending on how I'm feeling the music. Music sounds really stiff to me when it's played in strict 6/8 or 3/4 time.
Yes, but metre (as represented by a time sig) is an underlying accent pattern. It's nothing to do with where we place accents when improvising, or even when playing a composed melody. Those things are often in deliberate contrast with the implied accents of a metre.
IOW, you're making a different point from the one under discussion .
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  #59  
Old 05-05-2013, 11:03 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Yes, but metre (as represented by a time sig) is an underlying accent pattern. It's nothing to do with where we place accents when improvising, or even when playing a composed melody. Those things are often in deliberate contrast with the implied accents of a metre.
IOW, you're making a different point from the one under discussion .
I don't think it's a different point. I think that people get too hung up on time signatures. I could place strong accents at different places in a rhythmic accompaniment and it sounds like I'm playing in threes but the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 becomes nullified (unless I'm missing something).
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  #60  
Old 05-05-2013, 11:12 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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The 3/4 versus 6/8 debate is mostly a notation issue, not a playing one. In some classic cases, it can be obvious which one it is. In less classic cases, not so much. If you can't hear the difference, it's fine and there's nothing wrong with you.

This issue is similar to the use of different clefs. Why not use only one clef? It's all a matter of notation.
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