Build Thread: Kraut Modified Dreadnought

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

That would likely be easiest if you could find someone that would enjoy the details of what you and Ray have already worked out on that build and continue where it stopped. From what I've read, Ray has made several trips and spent considerable time before you decided to discontinue the process.

I wish best o' luck to all involved.

Thanks for the kind wishes. I'm sure it will work out one way or another. No, Ray did not make several trips. He made one trip to pick up a couple of guitars from finish in Santa Cruz. He offered to stop by my office, which is on the way back from Santa Cruz, to discuss the neck profile of my Mod D. As an added bonus, he generously offered to bring a handful of wood sets for the OM to discuss in person. Other than wood selection, no other details of that guitar have been discussed, and that was deliberate because I wanted to wait until I received the Mod D. I might have listed some details in my build thread but that was just me thinking out loud. Nothing was really discussed other than the wood choice.

For what it's worth, as a compromise and given the extenuating nature of the circumstances, I did offer to reimburse Ray at $100/hour for the time he spent reviewing wood with me (about 2 hours).

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by justonwo

<<snip>>

For what it's worth, as a compromise and given the extenuating nature of the circumstances, I did offer to reimburse Ray at $100/hour for the time he spent reviewing wood with me (about 2 hours).

So you offered $200 in lieu of the non-refundable $1500, as per the policy stated on his website?

[JamesO]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

The reality of the situation (including things said, yet better left unsaid) seems to be not-fully-understood by the OP.

While the website says non-refundable deposit, Ray's history has established the precedent that you can sell spots. So his own history of transactions doesn't really seem to conform with the site. It creates an implied policy. You can't get a refund, but you can sell your slot . . . unless you're Juston.

The reality of the situation seems fairly self-evident. It's just un-tidy, and very human. I think it'll work out for everyone though.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by JamesO

While the website says non-refundable deposit, Ray's history has established the precedent that you can sell spots. So his own history of transactions doesn't really seem to conform with the site. It creates an implied policy.

Exactly how many precedent(s) are we talking about here? And are we aware of the exact circumstances of those precedents? Are they the same as the current situation?

[JamesO]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

So you offered $200 in lieu of the non-refundable $1500, as per the policy stated on his website?

To me, it seems like Juston's tried to revoke the contract before performance on it has realistically begun. From the facts given here, Ray has said no. Juston tried to sell his spot, knowing that that's been an acceptable course of action with Ray in the past. Juston won't be receiving a guitar, but Ray will be receiving $1500 and isn't out any material expenses that we know of. This is unjust enrichment. He's out some time, but Juston has offered to pay him quantum meruit for his time.

Regardless of the website's language, it seems like something that'd be considered unconscionable in the eyes of most people.

[JamesO]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

Exactly how many precedent(s) are we talking about here? And are we aware of the exact circumstances of those precedents? Are they the same as the current situation?

I don't know. We know that someone has sold their spot, but for whatever reason Juston can't? I'm just seeing the surface here, so you might know of something else.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by JamesO

I don't know. We know that someone has sold their spot, but for whatever reason Juston can't?

OK so we're potentially talking about two distinct, unique cases.

I think you nailed it when you wrote "for whatever reason". Do you know what that reason might be?

Unless you know something I don't, I don't think either of us can judge on the fairness of the situation.

[steveh]

When a previous chap in Ray's line sold his slot I spoke to a luthier I know about it. I found the whole idea genuinely "interesting". If I were in the line I might get pretty annoyed that some other guy had jumped the queue by buying the slot. Also, his guitar would be cheaper since prices had risen in the interim and the slot and build was being offered at the old price. At the same time, if I could not progress with a build, I'd definitely like to be able to sell my slot etc.

Anyway, the luthier I spoke to also operates a 1.5k "non-refundable deposit". However, when I asked him what he thought about people selling their place in the line he said, "I simply give them their money back". I stated that this was in contrast to his "official" and "public" policy but he countered by stating that enacting this policy - although he is quite entitled to so so - created nothing but bad blood and ill-will and, in the final analysis, just wasn't worth it in terms of bad publicity.

I think we can see that he's right after reading this thread folks?

Cheers,
Steve

[JamesO]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

OK so we're potentially talking about two distinct, unique cases.

I think you nailed it when you wrote "for whatever reason". Do you know what that reason might be?

Unless you know something I don't, I don't think either of us can judge on the fairness of the situation.

I'm not judging it, but I am suggesting that it's certainly reasonable to look at it, which is really what I was trying to stress. We're not talking about something neat, tidy, and ready to tuck away. Like I said before, it seems like a pretty human situation, and I think it will work out in the end.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by JamesO

While the website says non-refundable deposit, Ray's history has established the precedent that you can sell spots.

Originally Posted by JamesO

I'm not judging it, but I am suggesting that it's certainly reasonable to look at it, which is really what I was trying to stress.

I think your second statement is certainly more neutral than the first one.

As you may know, a precedent can be established and acknowledged as a precedent -- only if we are aware that the details are similar, within reason.

[mikealpine]

I see no reason why Ray wouldn't allow Juston to sell the spot, other than simply because he can, and it is coming off, at least to me, as a punishment. Ray is welcome to present his side, of course. Juston seemed to be able to do this without slinging too much mud.

He also agreed to give Ray $200 for consultation fees. I think that's fair as well. Juston sells his slot to someone else, Ray still gets to build a guitar, and earns his consultation fee in the process.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there should be an advantage to Ray to simply refund the $1300, keeping the $200 as compensation for time invested. First, you sever a relationship that is sour, and even subconsiously can't be comfortable (at least it would feel uncomfortable to me to have that hanging over). Second, it ends the negative publicity. Third, if he's as in demand as it seems, then he'll fill the slot he was going to use for Juston's guitar with a guitar that he's charging more for, thereby earning more in the long run.

Giving back the money would seem to be more like a win-win here. If I'm missing something, I'm sure someone will bring it to my attention.

[JamesO]

Originally Posted by JoeCharter

I think your second statement is certainly more neutral than the first one.

As you may know, a precedent can be established and acknowledged as a precedent -- only if we are aware that the details are similar, within reason.

I see what you're saying and think you're right. I was responding to the absoluteness with which Larry was speaking.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by JamesO

I see what you're saying and think you're right. I was responding to the absoluteness with which Larry was speaking.

OK cool...

[justonwo]

I had actually purchased my OM build slot from someone else . . .

[Tone Gopher]

Hmmm...

"precedent" vs "exception"...

In science, we also observe the term "singularity".

The was once a saying that "The exception proves the rule."

It really does come down to, in the case of business, interpersonal relationships and the degree of flexibility between two parties.

Again, in science and engineering, we use the term "boundary conditions" - between two boundaries exist the space in which things happen.