Can't learn to love tabs

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by Laird_Williams

Part of the reason for your confusion is, again, it is about the quality of the tab transcription and not the limitations of the notation. The piece is clearly multi-voice in the standard notation - but that is not called out in this particular tablature rendering. The transcriber chose to show the standard notation multi-voice, but not the tab.

Hi Laird,

That's right! But the hybrid notation would look like a bloody mess (to me) if written in multiple voices . It's all a compromise between information and readability. When I am forced to choose, I usually go for the latter and let any additional information be conveyed through standard notation. See my previous post for some clarification about the problem DupleMeter brought up.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

Compare bars 1 and 3. The shorter stem denotes a half, the longer stem a quarter.

Hmm - that seems a little too subtle to be really useful. At least in my world. I show up to gigs with a pen, pencil and highlighter. And I highlight all the repeat signs, D.C., D.S. and coda markings. You can get lost on a page and forget where you go back to in the heat of the moment.

The "missing" tied note is not a shortcoming of the hybrid system. I actually opted for the program to hide them, as it made the tab much more readable (although in this case reference to the upper staff is needed). I can always choose to display it, based on the tune.

Well, I suppose you don't, but my guess is that the vast majority of us do not have the time or motivation to learn how to read standard notation fluently. It takes quite a good understanding of the fretboard and a mental map of where all the pitches are located, which brings me to my next point....

Take two simple pitches, G3 and E4. The thing about the guitar (and other fretted instruments) is that they can be played at multiple locations on the fingerboard: xxx0x0, xx5x5x, x[10]x9xx, [15]x[14]xxx, among many others. In tab, that information is available immediately. In standard notation, the string numbers have to be indicated (usually in circles, I think?) *and* the player has to have enough familiarity with the fingerboard to know where G3 and E4 lie on each string. That's quite a task for many of us without proper (formal) musical training!

Agreed - it is a lot to think about, but TAB is a lot to think about too. Though, I would say that TAB is more linear, more analogous - kind of like playing piano. You only have 1 choice for each note. No questioning where to play the note every exists. That seems to be what TAB does for the guitar. Removes the question of "where do I play that note".

And with that thought I think I just made break-through here. TAB takes a very non-linear instrument (the guitar) and imposes linearity on it. Now, I understand the appeal. I still think is has too many shortcomings to be self-sufficient as a notation system - but I get the appeal. My brain is just not very linear. I think like a string player...hence my aversion. It's like a therapy breakthrough!!

And just a point of clarification. What is traditionally done to get a player to play a note in a specific location in guitar music is mark the position (fret # where the 1st finger falls). In more contemporary music it is sometimes marked with fingering (fret # above the string # in circle). I think the marking of the position technique is cleaner and there are all kinds of notation symbols for helping out to get the desired fingering. For instance: IV C - would indicate a full barre at the 4th fret, making it: IV C 1/2, indicates barre three strings at the 4th fret.

P.S. I hope you didn't play the second example in standard tuning. It's DADGAD!!

Well, I did at first. And because the excerpt was only 4 bars without the low D or any note groupings that would require alternate tuning I got away with it. When I looked at the TAB I did see the fingering was a whole step off on the 6th, 2nd & 1st strings and realized it was in DADGAD/D Modal.

EDIT: Which actually brings up another point I'd forgotten to mention. How do players who use standard notation handle alternate tunings? And just to be clear, I'm not insisting one system is better than the other. I have learned to love both, and hopefully my students can benefit from that.

It's usually notated in the top left of the chart (e.g. Tuning: DADGAD, or (6)=D for dropped D - and that 6 would be in a circle) and then you just compensate when you read. It's a lot like looking at the key signature and making mental note of the offset for certain notes (like F# & C# in the key of D Major). You simply forget your doing it and it comes natural.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by HHP

Curious as to what can be represented in standard notation that cannot be represented in tablature. ....

Tablature maps out the fingerings on the instrument, but standard notation shows the flow of the notes in a direct way. Even with my rudimentary music reading skills, I can look at a melody in standard notation and, more or less, work out how the tune goes in my head, or sing it (I'm not great at this, but some folks in the choir I sing in are).

A person who is really good with reading standard notation can go further than this - some folks can read a more complicated musical score and hear all the parts and harmonies and such in their heads.

I doubt that few if any people can do this with tablature.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by wcap

A person who is really good with reading standard notation can go further than this - some folks can read a more complicated musical score and hear all the parts and harmonies and such in their heads.

I doubt that few if any people can do this with tablature.

I can do both -- and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

I can do both -- and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Thats very cool. I'm very impressed! I wish I could do this.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

And with that thought I think I just made break-through here. TAB takes a very non-linear instrument (the guitar) and imposes linearity on it. Now, I understand the appeal. I still think is has too many shortcomings to be self-sufficient as a notation system - but I get the appeal. My brain is just not very linear. I think like a string player...hence my aversion. It's like a therapy breakthrough!!

Now, I don't want to sound redundant what are those shortcomings that you are referring to?

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with all of your arguments. I'm not arguing with the fact that you don't like tabs (that's your opinion alright) but all of your arguments are invalid.

There are many types of tablature. Some are meant to be stand-alone while others are meant to be used with standard notation. The stand-alone type is not my cup of tea (too cluttered) but it does provide all the information you need to play a tune.

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by wcap

Thats very cool. I'm very impressed! I wish I could do this.

Actually, you can... The more you practice, the more intervals/chords you memorize, and the more songs you can sight-read.

Singing a melody line (such as your friends in the choir) is actually fairly easy. All classically trained musicians go through solfege (sight-singing) where most of the exercises are much more difficult than the average song. And we also go through sight-reading, which involves multi layers and complex timing as you move up the program.

We each have our individual limits. While I have decent sight-reading/singing abilities, I've met some truly gifted musicians who were simply from another planet.

I think we all agree that being able to read standard notation is a good thing. I also agree that lots of people can't read standard notation because they chose the easy way and just used tablature.

Of course, session players and classical players wouldn't survive without being able to read standard notation -- but this isn't because tablature is "wrong", it is because of tradition.

At the end of the day, what's the objective? Isn't it to play and enjoy the guitar? The last time I checked, playing the guitar isn't a sight reading competition. If you can sight read standard notation, good for you. But there's nothing wrong with tablature, really, and there's definitely nothing wrong with having both and being able to learn a song much faster.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

At the end of the day, what's the objective? Isn't it to play and enjoy the guitar? The last time I checked, playing the guitar isn't a sight reading competition. If you can sight read standard notation, good for you. But there's nothing wrong with tablature, really, and there's definitely nothing wrong with having both and being able to learn a song much faster.

True. Heck, who needs tablature either. There are plenty of people who can play guitar for hours a day, make beautiful music and never look at a piece of sheet music for the rest of their life.

I would guess the folks who play by ear probably think this whole conversation about tab vs. notation is akin to arguing about whether a swift kick in the shins is better or worse than being poked in the eye with a stick.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by JoeNewbie

Now, I don't want to sound redundant what are those shortcomings that you are referring to?

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with all of your arguments. I'm not arguing with the fact that you don't like tabs (that's your opinion alright) but all of your arguments are invalid.

There are many types of tablature. Some are meant to be stand-alone while others are meant to be used with standard notation. The stand-alone type is not my cup of tea (too cluttered) but it does provide all the information you need to play a tune.

Shortcomings:

rhythms are hard to read - I mean, c'mon a slightly longer line to indicate half verses quarter notes. That's potential disaster when you're playing an unfamiliar piece in front of an audience.

Phrasings are harder to express & are much more cluttered in TAB.

You have to translate string & fret positions to real notes to understand the theory behind the piece. Go ahead and take a TAB piece in D and transpose in your head to Bb or F while playing it. You're not reading notes, your reading finger positions...so you have an extra step of conversion in there. And yes, this happens all the time in real world situations.

And there is my point - if you sit and home and play for yourself, TAB is fine. If you want to play with other musicians in the real world you have to read standard notation. And that seems to be what you don't understand. TAB is a shortcut. No one really wants to admit that. Everyone wants to pretend it's just as good as standard notation. But, when you get to multi-part music it's much harder to read and it falls apart as a notation system. That is my point. And you even agreed - as a stand alone notation system TAB is too cluttered...the point of music notation (anyone who has taken a music engraving class will know this) is to convey the music in the least cluttered & easiest to understand manner.

You aren't going to accept that TAB is an inadequate shortcut, and that's fine. I'm not a prophet - I don't need to make everyone see the light. But move outside the circle of recreational guitarists and TAB is derided and laughed at. It's a shortcut that gives the gist of the music, but not the full experience. It's paint by numbers music.

TAB just perpetuates the stigma that guitarists can't read music...and for good reason - as this discussion has proven. The only people who believe that TAB is a legitimate notation system are the TAB reading guitarists. Doesn't that say something?

I guess I really want beginners here to know that. if you aspire to anything outside of playing at home or playing your tunes at the local book store for maybe $50 for the night, TAB is only going to slow you down. If you want to make decent money at music, learn to read standard notation.

I told this joke before and I'll tell it again (and I even heard it this weekend from a music director I was working with):

Q: how do you get a guitarist to turn down?
A: Put sheet music in front of him.

He then turned to me and said - "but not you...which is why I have your number on speed dial".

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

True. Heck, who needs tablature either. There are plenty of people who can play guitar for hours a day, make beautiful music and never look at a piece of sheet music for the rest of their life.

I would guess the folks who play by ear probably think this whole conversation about tab vs. notation is akin to arguing about whether a swift kick in the shins is better or worse than being poked in the eye with a stick.

<gratuitous monty python reference>

But is it a pointed stick?

</gratuitous monty python reference>

[GC3FORME]

[QUOTE=DupleMeter;2111295]



I guess I really want beginners here to know that. if you aspire to anything outside of playing at home or playing your tunes at the local book store for maybe $50 for the night, TAB is only going to slow you down. If you want to make decent money at music, learn to read standard notation.

QUOTE]


Had Eddie VanHalen had this info maybe they could have been successfull.EVH doesn't read any type of music.Eddies quote,"there's only 12 notes,play em how ever you want."

[DupleMeter]

[QUOTE=GC3FORME;2111355]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I guess I really want beginners here to know that. if you aspire to anything outside of playing at home or playing your tunes at the local book store for maybe $50 for the night, TAB is only going to slow you down. If you want to make decent money at music, learn to read standard notation.

QUOTE]


Had Eddie VanHalen had this info maybe they could have been successfull.EVH doesn't read any type of music.Eddies quote,"there's only 12 notes,play em how ever you want."

So, are we saying Britney, Christina, Miley or Aemrican Idol should set the pace for aspiring musicians?? They're the new Eddies (and Brads and Als and Leos).

Let's remember fame is a direct result of financial backing for marketing & promotion campaigns. Payola is still how a star is made.

But...let's not get into that whole can o' worms.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

You aren't going to accept that TAB is an inadequate shortcut, and that's fine. I'm not a prophet - I don't need to make everyone see the light. But move outside the circle of recreational guitarists and TAB is derided and laughed at. It's a shortcut that gives the gist of the music, but not the full experience. It's paint by numbers music.

TAB just perpetuates the stigma that guitarists can't read music...and for good reason - as this discussion has proven. The only people who believe that TAB is a legitimate notation system are the TAB reading guitarists. Doesn't that say something?

I guess I really want beginners here to know that. if you aspire to anything outside of playing at home or playing your tunes at the local book store for maybe $50 for the night, TAB is only going to slow you down. If you want to make decent money at music, learn to read standard notation.

Well you were being narrowly focused but now have moved into making statements that are elitist and insulting to a lot of people. According to you if one uses tab in any way he is not a real musician, simply a amateur hobbyist at best. Way to go.
Also the statement that "The only people who believe that TAB is a legitimate notation system are the TAB reading guitarists. Doesn't that say something?" is circular. You could turn it right around and stay the same thing about standard notation.
Regarding the rest of what I have quoted there are many examples of well know pros who make some money in performing music that prove them to be not invariably true, for example Tommy Emmanuel, Eric Clapton and for fun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca_GCvApODg
Over and out on this thread.

[mmmaak]

Not sure I like the direction this thread is taking. One thing's for sure....we really take our music seriously here!!

OK, I'm now going to play some pieces the "old fashioned" way....no tab or standard notation to worry about....just by ear

[JoeCharter]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Shortcomings:

rhythms are hard to read - I mean, c'mon a slightly longer line to indicate half verses quarter notes. That's potential disaster when you're playing an unfamiliar piece in front of an audience.

You are referring to the cheap amateur tabs. Bad example. Argument invalid.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

You have to translate string & fret positions to real notes to understand the theory behind the piece. Go ahead and take a TAB piece in D and transpose in your head to Bb or F while playing it. You're not reading notes, your reading finger positions...so you have an extra step of conversion in there. And yes, this happens all the time in real world situations.

Again, this is invalid. Using tabs doesn't mean you don't know which notes you're playing. Are you suggesting there is no conversion going on when you use standard notation? Come on... You're actually contradicting yourself here. You'll avoid an extra step of conversion just so that you can transpose the tune -- but you'll have one permanent step of conversion just to play it straight. Hmmm...

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

And there is my point - if you sit and home and play for yourself, TAB is fine. If you want to play with other musicians in the real world you have to read standard notation. And that seems to be what you don't understand. TAB is a shortcut. No one really wants to admit that. Everyone wants to pretend it's just as good as standard notation. But, when you get to multi-part music it's much harder to read and it falls apart as a notation system. That is my point. And you even agreed - as a stand alone notation system TAB is too cluttered...the point of music notation (anyone who has taken a music engraving class will know this) is to convey the music in the least cluttered & easiest to understand manner.

You're stuck on the point that it's tablature OR standard notation. Ever thought that people might be using both?

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

You aren't going to accept that TAB is an inadequate shortcut, and that's fine. I'm not a prophet - I don't need to make everyone see the light. But move outside the circle of recreational guitarists and TAB is derided and laughed at. It's a shortcut that gives the gist of the music, but not the full experience. It's paint by numbers music.

I really couldn't care less if people laugh at me for using tablature. If I can play the tune well, who cares how I learned it?

And how does standard notation provide a "fuller" experience? Standard notation is just the same as paint by numbers. This is again totally invalid.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

TAB just perpetuates the stigma that guitarists can't read music...and for good reason - as this discussion has proven. The only people who believe that TAB is a legitimate notation system are the TAB reading guitarists. Doesn't that say something?

This is perhaps the only accurate part in your reply. But did you already forget where blues/jazz/rock guitar comes from? Come on, give it some thought...

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I guess I really want beginners here to know that. if you aspire to anything outside of playing at home or playing your tunes at the local book store for maybe $50 for the night, TAB is only going to slow you down. If you want to make decent money at music, learn to read standard notation.

Tommy Emmanuel, Paco De Lucia... You are being unnecessarily condescending here.

If you prefer standard notation, that's fine. Don't spit on something that you don't fully understand and that has helped thousands of people enjoy the instrument.