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  #1  
Old 08-12-2018, 03:17 PM
rpnfan rpnfan is offline
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Default Strings with good / bad intonation?

I'm very sensitive if the guitar is not in tune (with equal temperament tuned). I tried already quite a bit of strings, but find that some really had intonation problems. Unfortunatelly also some of the strings I would have liked otherwise. Here are some experiences I had with different strings:

Test conditions:

Most sets have been "light" or "medium-light" in the 12-54 range. My guitar is a warm sounding luthier built OM with Alpine spruce on Honduran Rosewood.

DR Sunbeams could be my choice _if_ the intonation would be better. I wrote an e-mail to them, stating this. But they never replied, so I assume it is indeed a problem they can't fix and / or they don't care about the customers.

Martin S540 [lower priced bulk-version of M540]was soundwise o.k., although nothing special, but some strings have been off direct from the start.

Elixier Nanoweb I mostly like the sound, although I prefer others. They last indeed pretty long (until the thinner wound strings start to unwrap) and the intonation is good. Price surely high.

Philippe Bosset Acoustique Phosphor-Bronze are really great sounding strings on my guitar. Intonation was also fine, but the low E string was almost dead -- even for the fresh strings. I assume that there was something wrong with this specific set / E-string, but did not had the chance to try another one so far. Price is also on the high side unfortunatelly.

Newtone Master Class Phosphor Bronze So far my favourite besides the Philippe Bosset. Are also a bit pricey, but sometimes can be found for an "o.k." price. I did not had problems with intonation, but I read comments that others had problems.

Others I tested more strings which I did not like John Pearse 610LM, GHS Laurence Juber, D'Addario Nickel Bronze and also the EXP Phosphor Bronze, Martin MFX750 or strings which were o.k. but nothing special for me like EJ16.

So it seems I prefer round-wound strings (Newtone Master Class, DR Sunbeam), but I am not sure if round-wound strings (which presumably are always hand-wound!?) have potentially not always the consistency one wants -- especially when playing up in the higher registers on the fretboard.

What is your experience? Are there strings I should test? Currently I think I'll end up with the Newtone Master Class or Philippe Bosset if I can find an o.k. price and the problem with the E-string was indeed an exception.
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  #2  
Old 08-12-2018, 03:32 PM
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min7b5 min7b5 is offline
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Being sensitive to intonation on a guitar, acoustic in particular, in a bit of a curse (I have it too), as the guitar it's self is a notorious problem instrument. Which is why you see some going to extremes with not only compensated saddles, but also compensated nuts, and even compensated frets (if you haven't see pictures of that, it's pretty wild) and then they're still not "perfect."

My own feeling is the different string sets probably don't have intonation problems in and of themselves, maybe it's more the set that is testing best for you at any given moment is the set that matches best with your particular nut, saddle, relief, radius, local weather, etc. Even if the string are all the same gauge, differences in metal composition, type and shape of core, coating, age, etc, still play big role.
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:51 PM
Dustinfurlow Dustinfurlow is offline
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Will agree with Eric here...most lightly built, solid-wood guitars will be dependent on so many different things that strings are probably an insignificant factor for intonation being off, most cases...but I will say a few that I’ve tried that dont have great intonation are definitely the DR’s and some Ernie Ball variations of the phosphor bronze. Maybe it was all in my head. Every other brand I’ve used seems to be okay, with D’Addarios being the most consistently flexible, IMO.
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Old 08-12-2018, 04:15 PM
4-string 4-string is offline
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Another sensitive to intonation player here.

Martin Retros are worth a shot IMO, very stable and also sound very good, to my ear at least.
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Old 08-12-2018, 04:57 PM
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It's worth saying that intonation set at the saddle (and/or nut) will only ever be 'perfect' with the 12th fret harmonic at exactly the same pitch as the 12th fretted note for a particular type and gauge of string.

Differing tension, gauge, type of core (round or hex) and material make a difference, as does the tuning you're using, particularly on the wound bass strings. The shorter the scale length of your guitar, the greater the difference is likely to be.

So while some strings may indeed exhibit intonation problems due to inconsistencies in the core or windings (this is why old strings start to lose intonation as the windings get worn), it's more likely that your guitar is intonated for a particular type and gauge, and that other strings would intonate just as well with an appropriate saddle intonation adjustment.

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Old 08-12-2018, 05:58 PM
slooky slooky is offline
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I tried the Martin Lifespan strings and the B string was way off. Elixirs were spot on.
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:58 PM
imc2111 imc2111 is offline
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Interesting, I think I have the intonation “curse” too.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:19 PM
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Hi rpnfan

Curse - yup (my wife agrees).

To complicate things if one plays a very resonant instrument, my theory is I feel the pitches in my chest cavity and inner ear as well as hear them.

I've stopped between songs to tune things that are out-of-tune while recorders were rolling, and when I go back and listen to the recordings, I cannot hear the out-of-tuneness at all.

This might account for some of your empirical experiences with different brands of strings.

Fundamental, overtones, and internal resonance combining to create a mini-whirlwind of intonation fun-n-games!!!



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Old 08-13-2018, 03:49 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Eric wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by min7b5 View Post
My own feeling is the different string sets probably don't have intonation problems in and of themselves, maybe it's more the set that is testing best for you at any given moment is the set that matches best with your particular nut, saddle, relief, radius, local weather, etc. Even if the string are all the same gauge, differences in metal composition, type and shape of core, coating, age, etc, still play big role.

Then David wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfram Slides View Post
Differing tension, gauge, type of core (round or hex) and material make a difference, as does the tuning you're using, particularly on the wound bass strings. The shorter the scale length of your guitar, the greater the difference is likely to be.

So while some strings may indeed exhibit intonation problems due to inconsistencies in the core or windings (this is why old strings start to lose intonation as the windings get worn), it's more likely that your guitar is intonated for a particular type and gauge, and that other strings would intonate just as well with an appropriate saddle intonation adjustment.
I agree with both Eric and David here: the intonation problems you're seeing probably have more to do with your guitar and the accuracy of its setup than with the strings themselves.

To which I'll add that while electronic tuners have vastly improved the average guitarist's ability to get in tune, they've also sometimes created unrealistic expectations about how precisely intonated and in tune everywhere on the neck a guitar can be. The intonation on any guitar, at any quality level, is a compromise. It's just in the nature of the instrument. There's built-in imprecision there that can't be completely eliminated, try as we might.

To get the best possible intonation on any guitar, the first task is to decide on the brand, alloy and gauge of the strings that you're going to use on the guitar. In other words, if you decide that the Newtone strings are what work best for you, then take your guitar and not one but two sets of the Newtones to your nearest experienced guitar repair tech and have him or her carve a new saddle for your guitar that's optimized for those strings.

The reason to take two sets of new strings to the repair tech is that intonating a saddle requires loosening and then tightening the strings over and over again. This is about the fastest way to kill a set of strings that there is, but it's necessary to dial in the intonation. So if you only take one new set in with you when you drop off the guitar, the strings will be half-dead already when the work is done.

But if you take two sets in, the tech can get the saddle intonated correctly, then put the second set of strings on so you'll have a fresh set of strings sounding their very best when you come to pick the guitar up.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller
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Old 08-13-2018, 03:59 PM
ripdotcom ripdotcom is offline
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newer string have good intonation
older strings have bad intonation
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:49 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ripdotcom View Post
newer string have good intonation
older strings have bad intonation
That's true so far as it goes, but how well set up guitar happens to be has a huge influence on guitar intonation, too. You can have the newest, highest quality strings on the planet, but if the guitar they get put onto isn't intonated correctly, it won't matter.


whm
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:52 PM
imc2111 imc2111 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi rpnfan

Curse - yup (my wife agrees).

To complicate things if one plays a very resonant instrument, my theory is I feel the pitches in my chest cavity and inner ear as well as hear them.

I've stopped between songs to tune things that are out-of-tune while recorders were rolling, and when I go back and listen to the recordings, I cannot hear the out-of-tuneness at all.

This might account for some of your empirical experiences with different brands of strings.

Fundamental, overtones, and internal resonance combining to create a mini-whirlwind of intonation fun-n-games!!!



Interesting observation, Larry. I’ve found the same - Ive sometimes felt that the guitar wasnt quite in tune, but listening to the recording afterwards, made me question myself, as it sounded fine.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:59 PM
stringjunky stringjunky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imc2111 View Post
Interesting observation, Larry. I’ve found the same - Ive sometimes felt that the guitar wasnt quite in tune, but listening to the recording afterwards, made me question myself, as it sounded fine.
Could the anomaly be a tactile one i.e. the vibrations through your body and hands pick something up that your ears don't?
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:44 PM
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min7b5 min7b5 is offline
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Incidentally, I found a photo for the compensated frets I mentioned above. These look to be for a classical, but people do this for steel strings as well. Looks like a sobriety test to me

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Old 08-14-2018, 10:31 PM
silverspear silverspear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by min7b5 View Post
Incidentally, I found a photo for the compensated frets I mentioned above. These look to be for a classical, but people do this for steel strings as well. Looks like a sobriety test to me

interesting.. but since every guitar has been made with a specific string gauge in mind, would a change in string gauge make this compensated frets kind of meaningless in a sense?
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