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  #1  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:34 PM
chippygreen chippygreen is offline
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Default Seeking Custom Build Advice - Swiss Moon Tonewood --> B/S Pairing?

If ever there was a fool's errand...

I'm planning a custom build with Michael Bashkin, and to cut a long story short, I think I've done enough reading and talking about how to pair a Swiss Moon Spruce top with suitable B/S that I'm sort of at a loss how to process the information. So naturally, I'm turning to AGF to seek more data...

Now obviously, there are many variables at play, so many so that I can't really make a decision based on any one (or even several) opinions. Builder, guitar size and dimensions, construction methodology, player tone preferences, limitations of language, you can go on. But what I'm hoping is to tap some thoughts from those of you who have owned or played Swiss Moon tops - what was it paired with, in what configuration, and what were your impressions?

It's a bit of crowdsourcing if you will, to enrich the information I am drawing from to bring my discussions with Michael into greater focus, or sharper relief. I just have way too many options on the table right now (my fault, not his, because I seem to come up with a new suggestion for B/S every few days or so) and I'm trying to make a decision so I can reserve woods

I am fairly certain I will do the build in Michael's OM size, multiscale/fan-fret configuration (scale lengths TBD). Put aside consideration of any specific attributes I am looking for, if you will - AGFers, what were your observations about a particular Swiss Moon top wood/B/S pairing that you would be happy to share?

And yes, I've read some of the threads on Swiss Moon and it's ok to point out that if I sacrifice a virgin on the Cocobolo planks after the 2nd wolf stops howling - but not before the 3rd does - that I'll experience some otherworldly sympathetic resonance. I've already signed up for the mystery tour. Why? Let's just say I trust Michael, and having two of his guitars as reference points for the build, one in sitka and the other in adi, I feel Swiss Moon is the right starting point for me.
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Bashkin 00-12 Adi/Hog
Bashkin 0M-MS Swiss Moon/PRW(build thread)
Bashkin GC-12 Sitka/Koa
Carter-Poulsen J-Model German Select Spruce/MacEb
Fender MIJ Strat ('90) and 50s RW Tele ('19)
Martin 00-28c Spruce/BRW('67)
Martin M-36 (R) Sitka/EIR
Michaud O-R Cedar/Koa - New Build
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K. Yairi RF-120 Spruce/EIR
KoAloha KTM-25 Koa/Koa
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:58 PM
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Erithon Erithon is offline
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I can't speak to Swiss Moon Spruce myself, but it seems to me that another way to approach this (other than talking with Michael, which you already are), is to do what educators call "backwards planning." That is, to start with where you want to end up and work backwards from there. First identify what timbre you are looking for, as well as what you want the guitar to do, and then ask 'what B&S wood will get me there?'

Another route is to think about what niche this guitar will fill. You have clearly given this some thought already: the Placencia is different from the 00 or GC. In your case, those have Mahogany and Koa, respectively, so something different might be the way to go here: some Dalbergia, maybe a domestic wood like Cherry or Walnut, or perhaps an exotic wood like Wenge, Ebony, Ziricote, or Bubinga. You already have a Macassar Ebony guitar and several Rosewoods so that could help you narrow it down further.

Finally, if there isn't a particular tone you want, and you are as open to things as your post suggests, why not just chose the B&S based on aesthetic reasons? The B&S are a factor in the final sound, especially regarding the overtones present, but they matter less than the soundboard, builder, and bracing. Michael is a very fine builder and will get the most out of whatever set you pick.

Just some food for thought...
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:59 PM
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justonwo justonwo is offline
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I’ve read a lot about the various spruces over the years, and I’ve played a million different spruce guitars. I don’t think Swiss moon spruce is so unique in the spruce world that it really requires a special pairing or that it would excel in some way when paired with the right wood. I would choose based more on what kind of character you want the guitar to have. Purely based on what you’ve got in your Bashkin herd, I would opt for some kind of rosewood. Or get yourself a nice piece of pernambuco. Regardless, Michael will kill it. He’s gifted.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:15 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Chippy, you've established that you're going to get an OM/mid-sized guitar built that will have a Swiss spruce top, which is a subspecies of European spruce (Picea abies.) What I haven't yet gleaned from your post is what sort of musical use you plan to put this guitar.

Simply stated, musical style and picking hand attack have a great deal of impact on the tone of a guitar in this size, and knowing what sort of music you'll play can help point us to the back and side woods that might suit you best.


Wade Hampton Miller
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  #5  
Old 05-23-2018, 10:20 PM
Quake17 Quake17 is offline
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Default Re: Moon Spruce

Yeah, the jokes about Moon Spruce seem to write themselves

I'm not familiar with Baskin guitars but I'd definitely work with the builder.

I have three Moon spruce guitars. A Larrivee' OM which says it's Austrian Red Spruce on the label, but is noted as Moon. Very nice guitar, immediate and clear and handles strumming well.

I have an R Taylor Style 1 in Madagascar/Swiss Moon, which I've had 11 years now. Sort of the precursor to the GS body shape. It really excels at finger style and up to moderate strumming but not really a hard flat picking guitar. It was my first foray into any type of European Spruce and I hear more of a Hi-Fi sort of sound. It is pretty unforgiving when you hit some clankers.

I also have a Santa Cruz F in African Blackwood/Swiss Moon. I've had it about 8 months so it is still opening up, particularly recently. It's slightly larger than the R Taylor as I've become quite fond of small jumbos the past few years. It has a very dark sound and handles flat picking and strumming really well. Not super responsive but I expect that to improve over time.

I'm very happy with my guitars and feel Swiss Moon is at the least, very nice European Spruce. It may be quite a bit more if all the chanting has the desired effect

Best of luck with your decision!
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:45 PM
chippygreen chippygreen is offline
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Everyone, this is incredibly helpful, thank you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erithon View Post
I can't speak to Swiss Moon Spruce myself, but it seems to me that another way to approach this is to do what educators call "backwards planning." That is, to start with where you want to end up and work backwards from there. First identify what timbre you are looking for, as well as what you want the guitar to do, and then ask 'what B&S wood will get me there?'

Another route is to think about what niche this guitar will fill. You have clearly given this some thought already: the Placencia is different from the 00 or GC. In your case, those have Mahogany and Koa, respectively, so something different might be the way to go here: some Dalbergia, maybe a domestic wood like Cherry or Walnut, or perhaps an exotic wood like Wenge, Ebony, Ziricote, or Bubinga. You already have a Macassar Ebony guitar and several Rosewoods so that could help you narrow it down further.

Michael is a very fine builder and will get the most out of whatever set you pick.

Just some food for thought...
--> Yes, this was exactly the starting point. "Michael, here's sort of what I'm looking for, relative to what I have in my other guitars. Here's why I seem to lean towards spruce/RW in general....". This discussion narrowed to Swiss Moon and Carpathian. Along the way, opportunistic acquisitions of reference guitars helped me orient and align my own taxonomy with Michaels, so I could have a more tangible sense of what he meant by this or that.

--> Numerous discussions on X will improve clarity, Y will accentuate fundamentals, Z will enhance overtones ultimately yielded the feeling that I was being overly analytical, and this micro-scrutiny of anticipated outcomes doesn't at all gel with the notion of art (or nature) in tension with science (or design).

--> Which led me to this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justonwo View Post
I’ve read a lot about the various spruces over the years, and I’ve played a million different spruce guitars. I don’t think Swiss moon spruce is so unique in the spruce world that it really requires a special pairing or that it would excel in some way when paired with the right wood. I would choose based more on what kind of character you want the guitar to have. Purely based on what you’ve got in your Bashkin herd, I would opt for some kind of rosewood. Or get yourself a nice piece of pernambuco. Regardless, Michael will kill it. He’s gifted.

--> Ebony, Ziricote, Cocobolo, ABW, these were all candidates discussed for B/S. RW hadn't been discussed --> because I have several EIR guitars already --> but it's funny you should say this because my most recent thought was why try to be different for the sake of being different? Because you feel a custom build has to be special or different in some way? What if the sound you really want is in EIR or Mad Rose after all?

--> I echo all the comments on Michael. He has been incredibly helpful and patient - both very specific as to his experiences and his expected/anticipated results - and at the same time clear that there is as much art as there is science in this and that the wood is going to do what the wood is going to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
Chippy, you've established that you're going to get an OM/mid-sized guitar built that will have a Swiss spruce top, which is a subspecies of European spruce (Picea abies.) What I haven't yet gleaned from your post is what sort of musical use you plan to put this guitar.

Simply stated, musical style and picking hand attack have a great deal of impact on the tone of a guitar in this size, and knowing what sort of music you'll play can help point us to the back and side woods that might suit you best.


Wade Hampton Miller
Wade, I was sort of resisting that because I wanted to hear others experiences and voices but I accept being coy makes it harder for others to be helpful. So...

- modern, expressive fingerstyle (think: I would be very happy to play like Sungha Jung for example)

- I rarely use picks - almost always fingertip/nails

- I generally like to be able to generate a clearly voiced and articulated melody. I value roundness and clarity in the melody - typically midrange to treble - what I sometimes believe others to call "pianolike" tones. Yet the melody has to do the work of a vocal accompaniment - following the dynamic range, rise and fall and expression that evokes through tone and timbre what is otherwise experienced through voice and lyric. In that sense, the ability construct these melodies with slides/hammer-ons and pull-offs, vibrato, etc. is important, so having a responsive top that combines with a B/S that adds, or at least does not detract, from the contribution of the top to this voicing is important.

- My melodies will usually have arpeggiated backing. For the backing, I value the ability for notes to bloom and express overtones that support the fundamentals of the melody. In this context it becomes harder to describe the "it" factor. I want to say attack and speed is not as important here - what I value would be a warm, deep and resonant bass notes that anchor the arpeggio, while other arpeggiated notes support the melody by blending together as a supporting chorus without muddying the primary voice. One of the reasons I am working with Michael is I can accomplish this through touch - he builds these really responsive guitars that tiny adjustments in strength and angle to soften the action still produce fulsome notes with appreciable sustain and decay - this works really well for me on both the GC and 00.

I always appreciate and respect your incredibly thoughtful insights - as well as the humility with which you always offer that you hope your thoughts help (they almost invariably do). In that vein - I hope this is helpful...
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Bashkin 00-12 Adi/Hog
Bashkin 0M-MS Swiss Moon/PRW(build thread)
Bashkin GC-12 Sitka/Koa
Carter-Poulsen J-Model German Select Spruce/MacEb
Fender MIJ Strat ('90) and 50s RW Tele ('19)
Martin 00-28c Spruce/BRW('67)
Martin M-36 (R) Sitka/EIR
Michaud O-R Cedar/Koa - New Build
Michaud J-R Sitka/MBW
K. Yairi RF-120 Spruce/EIR
KoAloha KTM-25 Koa/Koa
Yamaha G-231 Cedar/Hog ('71)
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:53 PM
chippygreen chippygreen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quake17 View Post
Yeah, the jokes about Moon Spruce seem to write themselves

I'm not familiar with Baskin guitars but I'd definitely work with the builder.

I have three Moon spruce guitars. A Larrivee' OM which says it's Austrian Red Spruce on the label, but is noted as Moon. Very nice guitar, immediate and clear and handles strumming well.

I have an R Taylor Style 1 in Madagascar/Swiss Moon, which I've had 11 years now. Sort of the precursor to the GS body shape. It really excels at finger style and up to moderate strumming but not really a hard flat picking guitar. It was my first foray into any type of European Spruce and I hear more of a Hi-Fi sort of sound. It is pretty unforgiving when you hit some clankers.

I also have a Santa Cruz F in African Blackwood/Swiss Moon. I've had it about 8 months so it is still opening up, particularly recently. It's slightly larger than the R Taylor as I've become quite fond of small jumbos the past few years. It has a very dark sound and handles flat picking and strumming really well. Not super responsive but I expect that to improve over time.

I'm very happy with my guitars and feel Swiss Moon is at the least, very nice European Spruce. It may be quite a bit more if all the chanting has the desired effect

Best of luck with your decision!
This is helpful and also interesting across a few vectors. One is I have found (perhaps like you) that European Spruce does seem to work well for me in the SJ/MJ size - my Carter Poulsen (German Spruce) can present a sweet articulate side that sometimes surprises me in its size class.

Another vector is Swiss Moon/ABW is one of the specific combinations we've discussed. I've also got a few SJs and like em because they do move more easily between fingerpicking and strumming without feeling compressed/stressed. For ABW Michael talked about the incredible sustain he has experienced with ABW, for example. I'd be grateful if you have more insights to share, or even how your perception has changed over time/over the breaking-in period.

Lastly, after my recent very positive experiences with the M-36 (different guitar! different application!) and Willie Carter who was at SCGC before breaking out to do his own thing at Carter-Poulsen, I have been eyeing an SGCG OMG, but that's a separate story...
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Bashkin 00-12 Adi/Hog
Bashkin 0M-MS Swiss Moon/PRW(build thread)
Bashkin GC-12 Sitka/Koa
Carter-Poulsen J-Model German Select Spruce/MacEb
Fender MIJ Strat ('90) and 50s RW Tele ('19)
Martin 00-28c Spruce/BRW('67)
Martin M-36 (R) Sitka/EIR
Michaud O-R Cedar/Koa - New Build
Michaud J-R Sitka/MBW
K. Yairi RF-120 Spruce/EIR
KoAloha KTM-25 Koa/Koa
Yamaha G-231 Cedar/Hog ('71)
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2018, 12:12 AM
Quake17 Quake17 is offline
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ABW is definitely heavy, though it's not like you're carrying an LP around. A complex type of rosewood tone. I have some guitars in Brazilian but none with a Euro top, so it's hard to compare. I've not seen another ABW guitar to compare either, so its mainly relying on videos and discussions. I would definitely see what Mr Bashkin likes about using ABW and Moon spruce.
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Old 05-24-2018, 12:33 AM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Chippy, given how you’ve described your playing, it seems like clarity is paramount, as is touch-sensitivity. One tonewood that impressed me a LOT when I visited BSG Guitars’ production facility in Zamberk, Czech Republic was the European walnut they’d used on several guitars that I got a chance to play; in every instance, regardless of body style, it was the European walnut guitars of theirs that seemed to sound the sweetest.

It was tonally balanced, as both American black walnut and koa are, but had overtones about halfway between those two woods.

Another wood you might consider is red birch, which is just a bit softer than maple, which translates to instruments that have a similar clean sound as maple, but with a bit more sustain and a bit more bass response. What many folks don’t realize is that at least for the first twenty or twenty five years of Gibson’s history as a production line instrument manufacturer, they regularly substituted birch for maple. Some of the most sought-after mandolins in the world, the Lloyd Loar-era Gibson F-5 mandolins, were sometimes made of birch.

Of course, with a builder as skilled as Michael Bashkin, maple itself can be wonderful. There are several different species of maple in current use for guitar construction, each with their own characteristics. If maple appeals to you, talk to him about how he would shape the sound with it, and which maple species he’d want to use.

Of course, there are dozens of other tonewoods for you and he to consider, but give some thought to European walnut, red birch or maple. If I was going to pair a Swiss spruce top with an OM-sized guitar, the European walnut would probably be my choice.

I would recommend that you resist the temptation of going with claro walnut; while claro can often be visually spectacular, all of the mediocre and insipid-sounding walnut guitars I’ve played have been made out of claro. I’ve also played some really nice-sounding ones, too, but it really seems to be much more of a crapshoot with claro walnut than when the guitars are made out of American black walnut or European walnut.

“English walnut” is often how it’s marketed, possibly because of lingering luxurious associations with fine shotguns that have English walnut stocks

Whatever the reason, English/European walnut guitars are probably the sweetest-sounding walnut guitars that I’ve had a chance to play.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:00 AM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
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I have a European spruce top on one of my Larrivees. Back sides is South American Mahogany.

It's brash, percussive, and direct. With a lot of clarity.

Pretty much the opposite of my Engelmann/Rosewood. I easily play the Engelmann/Rosewood guitar 10 times as often as the Euro/Mahogany one.

If asked to pair a European spruce top with a back/sides wood I would want something with as many overtones as possible to counteract direct fundamental tendency of the top. So Cocobolo or one of the harder Dalbergias.

Honestly for the sound you are wanting I would pick Engelmann over Black Walnut instead of Swiss. My experience with Claro Walnut matches Wade's.
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:23 AM
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The make has huge influence over the guitar, a Bashkin sounds like a Bashkin and a Lowden sounds like a Lowden. So focus on what defines the sound of your current Bashkins.

The way the top is voiced can be as important as the type of spruce, so if you are talking with Michael I guess he already knows how you respond to your current Bashkins and how he should voice the next one to get what you want in terms of responsiveness, headroom etc.

Once the above is decided the B&S, to me at least, adds the colour and nuance to the guitar. For example I have two Baraniks, same body size, each with Italian spruce tops, but one with walnut B&S and one with ABW B&S. I really enjoy the contrast in sound that the different B&S woods give to these two otherwise almost identical guitars from the same builder.

Your current Bashkins are mahogany and koa. How much variation do you want in your next one? If you want a subtle variation on this you could go for Tassie Blackwood or walnut (my claro walnut Baranik is incredible). But if you want more of a contrast then rosewood or the rich, dark sound of ABW are good alternatives.

Oh and by the way, I like Italian spruce because to appreciate it you just need to eat a lot of pasta and drink red wine….much less complicated than what you said for Swiss Moon spruce!

Col
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:51 AM
mattwood mattwood is offline
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I have a Larrivee with Austrian spruce and Zebrano b/s. I think European spruce is anything but brash. It has a lot of overtones and produces more volume than the same size guitar that had a spruce top. I think it has more ring to it in the trebles but still delivers good bass and mids. I would pair it with something that has good bass to offset the trebles. I think it is wonderful for fingerstyle but sounds good with a pick too.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:38 AM
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I play mainly fingerstyle and prefer playing fingerstyle on dreadnoughts. I don’t own or have played guitars at similar calibre to your collection. My top 2 guitars in my stable is a Collings D2H Traditional and a Maestro Rosetta SD Private Collection. My Maestro has Swiss Moon Spruce paired with Wenge. This is my favourite go to dread at the moment. I felt the top has the sweetness of Englemann with Sitka’s headroom and the Wenge although visually dull, it has everything a little more than my Indian Rosewood in my Collings.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:02 AM
chippygreen chippygreen is offline
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Default Thank you everyone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
Chippy, given how you’ve described your playing, it seems like clarity is paramount, as is touch-sensitivity. One tonewood that impressed me a LOT when I visited BSG Guitars’ production facility in Zamberk, Czech Republic was the European walnut they’d used on several guitars that I got a chance to play; in every instance, regardless of body style, it was the European walnut guitars of theirs that seemed to sound the sweetest.

It was tonally balanced, as both American black walnut and koa are, but had overtones about halfway between those two woods.

Another wood you might consider is red birch, which is just a bit softer than maple, which translates to instruments that have a similar clean sound as maple, but with a bit more sustain and a bit more bass response. What many folks don’t realize is that at least for the first twenty or twenty five years of Gibson’s history as a production line instrument manufacturer, they regularly substituted birch for maple. Some of the most sought-after mandolins in the world, the Lloyd Loar-era Gibson F-5 mandolins, were sometimes made of birch.

Of course, with a builder as skilled as Michael Bashkin, maple itself can be wonderful. There are several different species of maple in current use for guitar construction, each with their own characteristics. If maple appeals to you, talk to him about how he would shape the sound with it, and which maple species he’d want to use.

Of course, there are dozens of other tonewoods for you and he to consider, but give some thought to European walnut, red birch or maple. If I was going to pair a Swiss spruce top with an OM-sized guitar, the European walnut would probably be my choice.

Whatever the reason, English/European walnut guitars are probably the sweetest-sounding walnut guitars that I’ve had a chance to play.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller
Wade - I hadn't considered this direction before - thanks for the recommendation and I'll pick it up with Michael. We are talking about a Japanese maple branch headstock inlay so walnut and maple are now on the list to discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty View Post
I have a European spruce top on one of my Larrivees. Back sides is South American Mahogany.

It's brash, percussive, and direct. With a lot of clarity.

Pretty much the opposite of my Engelmann/Rosewood. I easily play the Engelmann/Rosewood guitar 10 times as often as the Euro/Mahogany one.

If asked to pair a European spruce top with a back/sides wood I would want something with as many overtones as possible to counteract direct fundamental tendency of the top. So Cocobolo or one of the harder Dalbergias.

Honestly for the sound you are wanting I would pick Engelmann over Black Walnut instead of Swiss. My experience with Claro Walnut matches Wade's.
AZ - this kind of compare and contrast is helpful. While apples to apples comparisons are hard, this gives me a point of reference as I do really like my Northwood Engelman/RW combo. Cocobolo was my starting point as I was looking for a RW alternative. I'm planning to go back to Michael to talk RW, maple and walnut. (And thank you for the added color on your experience with Claro Walnut).

Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
Your current Bashkins are mahogany and koa. How much variation do you want in your next one? If you want a subtle variation on this you could go for Tassie Blackwood or walnut (my claro walnut Baranik is incredible). But if you want more of a contrast then rosewood or the rich, dark sound of ABW are good alternatives.

Oh and by the way, I like Italian spruce because to appreciate it you just need to eat a lot of pasta and drink red wine….much less complicated than what you said for Swiss Moon spruce!

Col
Col - also very helpful (and your +ive experience with Claro was noted) - I have admired the Baraniks I've heard in video and sound clips, and the ability to contrast while controlling for some variables was one of the reasons I bought the two secondary market Bashkins to help with my builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaroo View Post
I play mainly fingerstyle and prefer playing fingerstyle on dreadnoughts. I don’t own or have played guitars at similar calibre to your collection. My top 2 guitars in my stable is a Collings D2H Traditional and a Maestro Rosetta SD Private Collection. My Maestro has Swiss Moon Spruce paired with Wenge. This is my favourite go to dread at the moment. I felt the top has the sweetness of Englemann with Sitka’s headroom and the Wenge although visually dull, it has everything a little more than my Indian Rosewood in my Collings.
Pandaroo - your post + 1 google search landed me on another fantastic Jarvis/Guitar Spa video! The data point and comparison of Wenge to RW is particularly helpful. Collings makes fantastic guitars.
__________________

Bashkin 00-12 Adi/Hog
Bashkin 0M-MS Swiss Moon/PRW(build thread)
Bashkin GC-12 Sitka/Koa
Carter-Poulsen J-Model German Select Spruce/MacEb
Fender MIJ Strat ('90) and 50s RW Tele ('19)
Martin 00-28c Spruce/BRW('67)
Martin M-36 (R) Sitka/EIR
Michaud O-R Cedar/Koa - New Build
Michaud J-R Sitka/MBW
K. Yairi RF-120 Spruce/EIR
KoAloha KTM-25 Koa/Koa
Yamaha G-231 Cedar/Hog ('71)
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  #15  
Old 05-25-2018, 09:21 AM
mercy mercy is offline
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Coco will give you what you want. Australian BW is good as is Wenge. I wouldnt go with walnut or African BW. But back woods are the spice Baskin is the recipe.
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