Tonewood Costs

[T Texas]

I read in the classifieds that African Blackwood is a $3K upcharge on a Bourgeois. I'm curious how much the piece of wood actually costs the builder on something like this. Is that little bit of wood really that costly to the luthier?
Just wondering, not saying it is or isn't worth it.

Thoughts?

[mercy]

Hibdon Hardwoods sells great sets for 525 dollars.

[rct]

My only thought is that I can't be the first guitar player to say something to you about your name and that you are in Texas and, well, Kings X. Right?

rct

[T Texas]

Yeah rct, I've heard that a time or two

[T Texas]

Originally Posted by mercy

Hibdon Hardwoods sells great sets for 525 dollars.

hmmm, that makes it seem even crazier that it's such a big upcharge

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by T Texas

hmmm, that makes it seem even crazier that it's such a big upcharge

I wonder if it's much different to work with. That could greatly change the cost.

[Peegoo]

It's not just the cost of the materials. Some woods are difficult to work with and are harder on tooling. That drives up cost (labor + wear and tear on equipment).

But some woods are ridiculously overpriced because their export is controlled by the source country. I've been to many places overseas and woods considered as "exotics" in the West are commonly used for things like forklift pallets and shipping dunnage. It's quite goofy, and it takes a while to get used to seeing.

[SoCalSurf]

I have just started a custom build of a guitar from Preston Thompson, and he was very transparent in communicating and showing examples of wood samples and accompanying pricing from his supplier. So in this case, this is an actual cost to the luthier. I was able to make an informed choice on the value of paying for a higher quality set of wood, in this case Koa. I ended up paying more for a grade 4 set, although we are not talking anything close to the price you quoted for the Bourgeois.

Hope that helps.

There are tone wood sets and there are tone wood sets. For example, I can find a set of BRW for a few hundred dollars, but that says nothing about the quality compared to what longtime builders have squirreled away. Even if the up-charge is significant, many times what the builder paid, I don't see that as a problem. As a buyer of a finished guitar I am paying for their time and expertise in choosing the wood from the hundreds of other sets available, in addition to storing and seasoning the wood for however long they've had it, and picking the set they believe best suits my goals in a guitar.

[Goodallboy]

No comment on cost of that particular tone wood.

Cocobolo is a wood some builders refuse to work, so there’s something one might figure into the price of those that will use it.

[Jabberwocky]

The $3000 upcharge has little to do with the actual cost of the wood

One way of pricing a widget is to take the cost of materials and multiply it by a certain number. Say, an EIR guitar costs $3000 MAP. The cost of the materials for the guitar comes in at $300 (maker's economy of scale; he gets material cheaper than you or me). Times 10 to arrive at MAP. Say, that the EIR costs $100 per set. Now, you choose ABW that costs $300 per set. You might say, then the ABW guitar should cost $3200. That is not how pricing works though. Recall the 10X factor in arriving at a MAP. That same $300 set of ABW when made into a guitar has a MAP value of $3000 a set now.

It is hard to price in actual production cost, taking into account rent, insurance, workers' remuneration, medical benefits, etc.. So, believe it or not, some industries and makers do use the bill of materials and multiply it by a certain K factor to arrive at MAP. It makes pricing across many models simple and consistent. If you are an amp maker, say, the cost of materials for Amp 1 is $100 and for Amp 2, $200. If you price Amp 1 at $1000 MAP, then Amp 2 has a MAP of $2000. I have heard it many times: why doesn't Fender use a better $1 resistor than a 20 cents one? Well, that is because that $1 resistor has a $10 price tag when it reaches the market. That adds up pretty quickly and soon a $500 amp turns into a $2500 one. The cost of labour remains the same but the maker needs a differentiator amongst his products and this is one way of doing it. He has to keep the pricing logic consistent across all models. The simplest and most consistent way is to take the bill of materials and apply a K factor. Then use that across the board.

For example, I was just looking at a guitar with a MAP of $9995 for an EIR/Spruce guitar. Cocobolo RW is a $2500 upcharge. Cook Woods sells old growth Cocobolo for $250 a set to the one-set buyer.

You can just take an EIR Bourgeois of the same model and do an estimate of the cost of materials. Then look at its MAP and find out what the K factor is. Now substitute the EIR with the ABW and see if the price does not land up exactly where Bourgeois prices it at.

[mercy]

Still some builders make money on the materials they use cause they can. Other builders, ones usually without the big names that carry the big stick, just charge for their skill and labor. Nevertheless its a market economy, people can charge what they want to for their product without reference to costs. And yet still your example of Fender upsets me as a consumer. Im not upset at you but at Fender, I dont own a Fender amp.

[Wade Hampton]

Tybor, the up charge for getting a rare tonewood like African blackwood is partially due to the extra work they go to to even obtain that wood, which is not part of their everyday wood acquisition process. But the bulk of the up charge is profit, just like the price of a nice bottle of wine at a fancy restaurant. In either case, tonewoods or wine, it’s easy to go out and get the same thing for less money elsewhere, but just as you can’t bring your own bottle of wine with you to 99% of the restaurants out there, with most guitar companies you can’t “BYOB” and have them build a special order guitar with tonewoods that you’ve sought out and purchased yourself.

Custom guitar handbuilders will often use wood supplied by the client, but assembly line factory guitar companies generally will not. That’s partially because they want to preserve their profit margin, but it has at least as much to do with making sure that the wood is completely suitable, which is not always the case with wood sets that have been purchased off eBay or something. Plus, if there’s a mishap with a client-supplied wood set, a side gets busted or something, it can be an enormous hassle for the company to scramble and find another piece that matches the rest of the set, particularly with highly figured wood like koa.

So high volume guitar companies usually make it a policy to supply their own wood sets. They do so for all the reasons I stated: to make accepting custom orders profitable for them, but also to ensure that they have suitable wood to build the guitar out of.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by mercy

Nevertheless its a market economy, people can charge what they want to for their product without reference to costs.

Bingo.

Luthiers charge what they think consumers are willing to pay. Lumber suppliers charge what they think luthiers will pay.

Some woods are more expensive than others, but not usually in proportion to the markup being applied.

Let's take the example of mahogany. "Plain", unfigured, slab-cut mahogany is relatively in-expensive, around $15/board foot in my area. If one is buying it sold as quartersawn mahogany, it will likely be more - perhaps $25 or $30/bd ft - because of the added waste usually associated with quarter sawing it. If one is buying mahogany with figure, such as ribbon, the price will be more expensive still. Not because it cost more to grow, cut or dry, but because it is more rare: having less of it available, while there is large demand for it, will increase the price, just because people will pay it. If one is buying quilted mahogany, the price will be many times that of plain, unfigured mahogany. Again, not because it cost more to grow it, transport it or dry it - though it might cost a little more to cut it for best figure - it's because of its scarcity, and that people are willing to pay more for it. Add a good interest story about how special the tree was from which it was cut and you can charge even more. Supply and demand.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by T Texas

hmmm, that makes it seem even crazier that it's such a big upcharge

Ok, so they select it, using the experience that they have gained to choose what they feel is the best set. Then they usually season it for a period of a few years at least; even though it may have been done by the seller. Then they build with it. Oops, it cracked, due to a flaw in the wood, invisible to the naked eye. So now they have to pull another set off of the shelf to fulfill the order, and eat the cost of the first one.

Still crazy?