XY vs Mid-Side test - ***UPDATED***

[howthewestwas1]

***EDIT 9/18: re-recorded with less room ambiance and overall thicker sound. Both XY and M/S have slight a HPF applied***


On a roll here, guys. Last week I was experimenting with Mid-Side stereo mic'ing. This week I wanted to give XY a try.

'56 Martin 00-18 + Universal Audio Solo 610s + Focusrite 18i8 + Cubasis

"Mint"
XY: Neumann TLM102 x 2, aimed around the 14th fret, ~14 inches away. . Each mic is panned hard L/R.


Mid-Side: Neumann TLM102 + AKG C414, aimed above center of guitar, ~14 inches away.




"The Furrowed Brow"
XY: Neumann TLM102 x 2, aimed around the 14th fret, ~ 14 inches away. . Each mic is panned hard L/R.


Mid-Side: Neumann TLM102 + AKG C414, aimed above center of guitar, ~14inches away


Interested to hear your thoughts!

[howthewestwas1]

Fixed the links!

[howthewestwas1]

Re-did the XY tracks in the living room, which I think yielded even better results.

Edit: these tracks have been replaced as of 9/18 with tracks done in my music lounge.

[alohachris]

Aloha howthewestwaswon,

Your recordings demonstrate perfectly some lessons I had to learn when first getting into recording acoustic guitar decades ago, & in the last 15 years, with home recording using DAW's & varied recording spaces.

First, stereo recording always sounds better to me than mono for solo acoustic pieces: fuller, wider freq. spectrum, more musical. Always. And usually best in spaced pairs too - especially in a treated space.

If you sing & play, you can use mono guitar tracks well in a mix - much depends on how you mix it & what kind of mic(s) you use.

Secondly, although I've experimented with hundreds & hundreds of mic type/brand combo's, I always come back to a matched pair of condensers of the same type & brand as my preference.

I'll sometimes add an M-S track to the stereo mix using an AEA R-84 ribbon mic to fill in the middle & provide more editing/FX options. But I still love to record an acoustic guitar using a matched pair of SDC's or LDC's in stereo. Note: my favorites continue to be Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK41 or hypercardioid, MK 2 omni's or MK22 wide cardioid capsules. BTW, it's difficult to successfully use omni cap's in an untreated space - unless it's a heckuva space.

Third, unless players really commit to Room Treatment (and most don't get the importance of it - like Martin Maniac seems to be - until they've tried & failed to buy their way to better, more consistent results), their recordings will be all over the place. That happened to me for years until I saw the light on treated spaces. Throwing around some mover's blankets is NOT primary, workable Room Treatment. Note: You can use them in front of windows, sliding doors, large pictures, TV screens & other reflective surfaces. But they do not solve mid & lower range reflective issues in your recordings.

In fact, in an untreated space, you are pretty much limited to close-miking mic placements, preferably X-Y & NOT M-S. Your recordings here truly bear that out here - especially the ongoing balance issues with M-S placed at the 14th fret, untreated space. Room Treatment allows you to experiment with all kinds of mic placements, many of which will sound great!

Yes, we can hear your room all over the place in these recordings. So as you know now, you must commit to treating your space in order to hear any clear & tangible improvements from here on out. Forget using M-S in your current untreated space - it uses the room, & yours is currently uncontrolled.

The X-Y recordings, especially using the matched 102's are the clearest, most balanced & best sounding by far of all you've shared to date, IMO.

You play well, my friend. You're getting close in recording. Don't you deserve the quality, depth, frequency definition, consistency, control & placement options that room treatment will give you?

DIY, portable broadband absorbers are the way to do it. Store them out of the way when you need to use the room for other functions. I made 22 portable broadband absorbers using OC 703 & stuff from Walmart & saved thousands doing it. I use them in the many room configs. that a renter must apply them in. Works every time.

Most players picture a big bucks investment, permanent installation & lots of space being taken up when they think of Room Treatment. Nothing could be farther from the truth. No way around it - we all need it if we're going to invest our time & money into home recording.

Thanks for taking the time to share your clips. All the best, howthewestwaswon.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

[howthewestwas1]

Alohachris, thank you very much for the kind words, thoughtful response and insightful advice. I am learning a lot and happy to be making progress. I had previously underestimated how much the room factors in to acoustic guitar recording! I like the idea of those portable absorbers - will have to look into that!

[alohachris]

Aloha howthewestwaswon,

Here are a few useful links RE: DIY Room Treatment:

DIY broadband absorbers video from Fran Guidry:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/


The sonic difference w/ just two absorbers also from Fran:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mPR0q1KzqQ


You can get a lot of R/T & recording advice from gearslutz:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...tudio+building


Ethan Winer's R/T Bible - download & keep in the bathroom - Ha!:

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html


Also, check past AGF "room treatment" threads. The Many!


Please feel free to PM me if you want to know how I made OC 703 absorbers & treat my spaces, what you need to keep costs down, what you don't need & what works for making & installing or placing cheap DIY treatment. I'll share what I know, FWIW.

All the best, howthewestwaswon!

alohachris

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha howthewestwaswon,

Here are a few useful links RE: DIY Room Treatment:

DIY broadband absorbers video from Fran Guidry:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/


The sonic difference w/ just two absorbers also from Fran:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mPR0q1KzqQ


You can get a lot of R/T & recording advice from gearslutz:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...tudio+building


Ethan Winer's R/T Bible - download & keep in the bathroom - Ha!:

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html


Also, check past AGF "room treatment" threads. The Many!


Also, feel free to PM me if you want to know how I did it, what you need to keep costs down, what works for cheap DIY treatment. I'll share what I know, FWIW.

All the best, howthewestwaswon!

alohachris

I've built flat and folding versions of Fran's absorbers and they do indeed make a big difference in reducing unwanted ambient/room noise.

[Racerbob]

Room treatment aside, For me the MS wins hands down. So much "fuller"

[howthewestwas1]

Thanks, alohachris for the resources!

Originally Posted by Racerbob

Room treatment aside, For me the MS wins hands down. So much "fuller"

Thanks for chiming in. The MS definitely has more mid character and having the center image adds to its thickness. The xy seems to have more "air" and clarity.

[howthewestwas1]

Another update with what I think is my most successful attempt yet.

Re-recorded the two XY tracks, back in the lounge this time (as opposed to the living room) and with much more awareness of room ambiance/dynamics. In the end, after very careful mic positioning, I was able to get a nice intimate tone that is much fuller and with less room...and less proximity effect!

[alohachris]

Aloha howthewestwas1,

Good work/results. I PM'ed ya!

alohachris

[Doug Young]

Getting better each time! To me the XY tracks are still rather boomy, and seem narrower than I'd expect. The MS recordings are much wider, maybe too wide? In any case, you're not getting the nominal MS setup, which should be all but indistinguishable from XY. These have more room sound than I'd want, personally, but it doesn't sound bad, and is fairly natural. But I'm nit-picking. All in all, sounding pretty good to me.

[howthewestwas1]

Thanks for the listens/comments, guys.

Doug, I re-uploaded the new XY tracks just now. For some reason, my previous, more room-heavy XY, versions were playing back at times. The issue should be fixed now. Not sure if you were hearing the old versions or not since you mentioned how much room was in the tracks.

Thanks again!

[Doug Young]

The XY sounds better now, I think. I hear the room, or at least some less focused sound, more on the MS. Your MS tracks are also a bit quieter, which makes for a different impression

[howthewestwas1]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The XY sounds better now, I think. I hear the room, or at least some less focused sound, more on the MS. Your MS tracks are also a bit quieter, which makes for a different impression

The MS tracks were done in a different part of the room and that unfortunately had more sound reflections going on, particularly on the side mics. And yes the levels were a little lower on that recording. It's been quite a learning process so far. Thanks for all the help!

Also, since I'm using two (albeit small) LDC mics, the XY setup looks like this. The capsules are not as close as they would be with SDC but it seems to have worked out well.