Laminate or Plywood?

[gr81dorn]

Originally Posted by tonyg

So by definition, I don't believe they are the same thing as some have suggested.

They actually are the same thing in that laminated woods are, in fact, plywoods. But not all plywoods are laminated woods...so in that sense they aren't the same thing ;-)

The thing is, there is no real official definition of either since they are both really a concept, not an actual product, but rather a method of making a fabricated substitute for solid wood.

Plywood is a general term that encompasses a wide world of goods but the key factor is that plywoods are made up of a multitude of layers of primarily wood fibers and boogers ;-) (adhesives). In theory, literally anything that has multiple layers of wood and glue smushed together could be considered plywood....wood made of multiple plies of wood fiber. OSB is a bunch of shredded shrapnel and adhesive smushed together - plywood. Very fancy veneers carefully selected and adhered to one another to make a perfect sheet good...still plywood. A different world of appearance, quality, function, but both are plywood.

Lamination is a process of layering anything. It's one way to make a type of plywood. There are various products that get referred to as laminates and they very greatly in exactly how they are comprised, but they all share that the process of lamination is a part of their manufacture.

There are nuances and shades of grey in any of this stuff, but I can speak as a person deeply rooted in the lumber industry, it's confusing on every level (your DIY person to the most experienced manufacturer) and a lot is just referential and localized to certain parts of the country, certain industries, etc.

Ultimately, in the context of the guitar biz, the distinction is really non-existent when it comes to the words themselves. The makers are simply trying to divert you from the fact that it's not solid wood, though the quality of their composition may be better than the next builder. Some do, in fact, laminate several layers of quality veneer to make a really high quality layered, laminated plywood. Some buy garbage plywood made of all sorts of crap with veneer over it. Others do something in between.

[Monsoon1]

I'd just like to know how they cut such thin layers of wood.

[gr81dorn]

Originally Posted by Monsoon1

I'd just like to know how they cut such thin layers of wood.

There are two primary methods of slicing veneers - a flat cut and rotary cut.

Here is a machine that cuts our veneers for making things like door jambs and veneered boards. It takes a solid piece of wood and it rolls through the slicer. The other version of this method has the piece of wood stay in place and the saw moves. The sheets’ faces look just like the face of a board, but they can be crazy thin, like as thin as 1/128” if that’s the setting.



Rotary method takes a log and it spins while being sliced allowing for giant sheets to come out of it. The look is totally different, as you might imagine.



It’s pretty fascinating to watch, actually.

Once it’s cut, some veneer gets a layer of this meshy material adhered to it,referred to as “fleece backing” which holds it together and allows it to be more pliable and resist cracking and falling apart. Veneer is very delicate and a quick change in temp or moisture can ruin it quickly. Our veneer warehouses are very warm and moist to keep the veneer safe.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by gr81dorn

There are two primary methods of slicing veneers - a flat cut and rotary cut.

Here is a machine that cuts our veneers for making things like door jambs and veneered boards. It takes a solid piece of wood and it rolls through the slicer. The other version of this method has the piece of wood stay in place and the saw moves. The sheets’ faces look just like the face of a board, but they can be crazy thin, like as thin as 1/128” if that’s the setting.



Rotary method takes a log and it spins while being sliced allowing for giant sheets to come out of it. The look is totally different, as you might imagine.



It’s pretty fascinating to watch, actually.

Once it’s cut, some veneer gets a layer of this meshy material adhered to it,referred to as “fleece backing” which holds it together and allows it to be more pliable and resist cracking and falling apart. Veneer is very delicate and a quick change in temp or moisture can ruin it quickly. Our veneer warehouses are very warm and moist to keep the veneer safe.

That's amazing.

[jim1960]

Plywood and laminated wood

Plywood and laminated wood are both made of layers (laminae) of wood glued together. The basic difference is that in plywood the grain of alternate layers is crossed, in general at right angles, whereas in laminated wood it is parallel. The development of these products (as well as particleboard, described in the next section) was made possible by the production of improved adhesives—especially synthetic resins—in the 1930s and ’40s.

https://www.britannica.com/science/wood-plant-tissue/Plywood-and-laminated-wood

[Robin, Wales]

The Godin cherry plywood that they make themselves for the construction of the backs and sides of their most popular guitar models is 3 layers of cherry with the grain direction of the middle layer at 90 deg to the outer ones. I recently emailed them to ask.

Looking at the grain pattern on the Art & Lutherie and Seagull guitars I have, I think (although I have not confirmed this) that the backs of the guitars use rotary cut cherry and the sides straight cut (perhaps to facilitate bending?).

I believe the company does the whole process from finding the fallen trees (no clear felling) to the finished guitar. That cherry plywood certainly makes great sounding guitars!

[Pura Vida]

Just one clarification on the Godin 3-layer laminate. It's Cherry (or whatever laminate wood) on the outsides and Maple in the center. Also, all three pieces are equal widths, rather than two thin veneers and a large filler in the middle. The combination of the three equal pieces and the Maple center are their "secret sauce" why their laminate guitars sound so good.

[whvick]

Originally Posted by Willie_D

The problem is that there are not universally accepted definitions of terms.



Plywood and laminate can be 2 layers of veneer with pretty much anything sandwiched in the middle, from formica to wood to osb. In some cases the woodgrain layer may even be a paper-thin printed layer.



Layered is a more specific term. When Taylor, ferinstance, says the back and sides are "layered sapele," that means three layers of sapele laminated together - no shenanigans in the middle.

It seems like the Taylor effort to glue three layer together would be harder than just using a solid layer? How do they save money?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by whvick

It seems like the Taylor effort to glue three layer together would be harder than just using a solid layer? How do they save money?

I think, in this instance, it is more about having a very consistent building material for stability and ease of machining further down the production line, and within the end product. Although, I would also expect that Taylor may get more usable board out of a piece of timber by doing this.

Certainly with the rotary cut method you would get a lot more useable board out of a log than with quarter sawing. But perhaps more importantly you can make your plywood boards the right thickness and stiffness for your specific end purpose.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Pura Vida

Just one clarification on the Godin 3-layer laminate. It's Cherry (or whatever laminate wood) on the outsides and Maple in the center. Also, all three pieces are equal widths, rather than two thin veneers and a large filler in the middle. The combination of the three equal pieces and the Maple center are their "secret sauce" why their laminate guitars sound so good.

Are you sure about that? I can't say that you are wrong but I've never seen this from any other source. This factory tour article would suggest that the ply is all wild cherry.

https://brickhouseguitars.com/godin-factory-tour/

[The Bard Rocks]

What we are collectively saying us that different people (and companies) use different definitions for the same word, which of course makes it hard to hold an intelligent conversation.

Here's what it means to me:

Plywood - 3 or more layers, each one at 90 degrees to the ones touching it
Layered - 2 or more layers, probably running in the same direction
Laminate - may or may not be all wood, but my bet it isn't
Doubled (as in sides alone) - 2 layers, running in the same direction

[gr81dorn]

Originally Posted by whvick

It seems like the Taylor effort to glue three layer together would be harder than just using a solid layer? How do they save money?

That laminating process is actually a lot less effort with a much higher yield than using solid lumber and the components are a lot less expensive, so it's definitely favorable from a cost standpoint on the manufacturing side. you can also make a ton of it at once.

Lumber doesn't come in the (less than 1/8" or so) that back and side sets are, so you have to go through a bunch more steps to get your lumber to that thickness, including a bunch of resawing and sanding.

There are a lot of efficiencies vs using solid, even though it seems otherwise on the surface.

[Pura Vida]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Are you sure about that? I can't say that you are wrong but I've never seen this from any other source. This factory tour article would suggest that the ply is all wild cherry.

https://brickhouseguitars.com/godin-factory-tour/

Somewhere I have an email from Michele B. at Godin/Seagull. But here's a link to a post on the Acoustic Guitar Cabin, where Michele also confirmed to Dave F., who's extremely knowledgeable on Seagull and Yamaha guitars. It's mentioned several times on that site.

https://acousticguitarcabin.boards.net/post/17115

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Pura Vida

Somewhere I have an email from Michele B. at Godin/Seagull. But here's a link to a post on the Acoustic Guitar Cabin, where Michele also confirmed to Dave F., who's extremely knowledgeable on Seagull and Yamaha guitars. It's mentioned several times on that site.

https://acousticguitarcabin.boards.net/post/17115

Thanks for the link.

[Neil K Walk]

From a consumer's standpoint it's marketing. "Layered" is a buzzword meant to convey a positive mindset, whereas "plywood" implies a negative mindset associated with reduced quality and cost cutting measures.

"Laminate" is another thing entirely as it doesn't even necessarily have to even be a wood product. In fact, with all the ravings about carbon fiber construction (which also has its downfalls despite various testimonies to the contrary on this forum) I'm surprised that vinyl hasn't become an option for back and sides.

As for Taylor doing laminates well, I beg to differ. They are not doing anything new and in their lower end offerings the cost cutting measures of skipping pore filling and over applying finish to compensate for a lack of bracing are apparent. I would put the quality of the lamination of my nearly 50 year old Takamine up against even Taylor's "deluxe" 200 series guitars. Both have full gloss finish on the outside, a matching but unfinished inner face layer and a central layer of soft white wood which is likely poplar. The 100 series though seems to strongly resemble the "salad bowl" Ovations of old. No thank you.

In all fairness though, I still think that Taylors are otherwise vastly superior to Takamine and mine is actually "junked."

Still, there are boutique builders who take the use of laminates to new levels - using materials and methods that are almost marvels of engineering. Playing a McKnight with a "double top", "double sides" and "hollow back" put my preconceptions to the ultimate test and I was amazed that it was actually superior to solid wood construction.