Emerald X20 vs X30--thoughts?

[kramster]

Annual Arizona Songwriter get together and thats a piano brand ... really fine piano brand ..I prolly only played 3 or 4 so far... first one in Johnson, Vermont on a college stage about 40 years ago...almost before I was born

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by kramster

Annual Arizona Songwriter get together and thats a piano brand ... really fine piano brand ..I prolly only played 3 or 4 so far... first one in Johnson, Vermont on a college stage about 40 years ago...almost before I was born

Pianoteq is a software product from France. I have worked on a few engineering projects with folks in Toulouse, France. Those engineers are really, really smart. We usually think of Germany when we think of fine engineering. But France is right in there too. Pianoteq has a completely modelled set of pianos. There are two ways that software attempts to replicate the sound and experience of a "real" piano.

The first is via samples, which are essentially playing back a recording of a piano. Each note is recorded several times at different volume levels. The result is a big bloated piece of software that takes a lot of memory and CPU time to function properly.

The second is through the use of constructing mathematical models of how a piano does what it does to create a note. This software is very easy on memory and certainly better with CPU usage. The result is much more dynamic and realistic in many respects than the sampling approach.

Where sampling represents a "brute force" approach to solving the problem, modelling is much more sophisticated, presenting a very elegant solution.

There are only two fully modelled piano products available today. One is the Pianoteq software which runs on a personal computer connected via midi to a piano-type keyboard. The other is the Roland V-Grand digital piano.

The V-Grand has now been discontinued, and subsequent Roland digital pianos are about half the price of the V-Grand at most. All of these use a combination of modelling and sampling, rather than pure modelling, called Supernatural modelling.

I own a V-Grand. If I didn't, I would be running Pianoteq as kramster does.

Pianoteq: https://www.pianoteq.com/
V-Grand: http://eg.roland.com/products/v-piano_grand/

I hope this short non-technical explanation helps. The math behind physical modelling is fascinating, but runs too far afield of a guitar forum.

Tony

[kramster]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Pianoteq is a software product from France. I have worked on a few engineering projects with folks in Toulouse, France. Those engineers are really, really smart. We usually think of Germany when we think of fine engineering. But France is right in there too. Pianoteq has a completely modelled set of pianos. There are two ways that software attempts to replicate the sound and experience of a "real" piano.

The first is via samples, which are essentially playing back a recording of a piano. Each note is recorded several times at different volume levels. The result is a big bloated piece of software that takes a lot of memory and CPU time to function properly.

The second is through the use of constructing mathematical models of how a piano does what it does to create a note. This software is very easy on memory and certainly better with CPU usage. The result is much more dynamic and realistic in many respects than the sampling approach.

Where sampling represents a "brute force" approach to solving the problem, modelling is much more sophisticated, presenting a very elegant solution.

There are only two fully modelled piano products available today. One is the Pianoteq software which runs on a personal computer connected via midi to a piano-type keyboard. The other is the Roland V-Grand digital piano.

The V-Grand has now been discontinued, and subsequent Roland digital pianos are about half the price of the V-Grand at most. All of these use a combination of modelling and sampling, rather than pure modelling, called Supernatural modelling.

I own a V-Grand. If I didn't, I would be running Pianoteq as kramster does.

Pianoteq: https://www.pianoteq.com/
V-Grand: http://eg.roland.com/products/v-piano_grand/

I hope this short non-technical explanation helps. The math behind physical modelling is fascinating, but runs too far afield of a guitar forum.

Tony

I was just gonna say that but took a nap half way through and couldn't spell subseecant..I mean subsequate...I mean...sub... anyway see what I mean? And now it's snack time anyway.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by kramster

I was just gonna say that but took a nap half way through and couldn't spell subseecant..I mean subsequate...I mean...sub... anyway see what I mean? And now it's snack time anyway.

Yessir! What he said.

Anyway, all that about modelling vs sampling could have been said in a much simpler way … ya done good, kid!

Tony

[kramster]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Yessir! What he said.

Anyway, all that about modelling vs sampling could have been said in a much simpler way … ya done good, kid!

Tony

I really like Pianoteq through my studio monitors...but with decent headphones AMAZING!! .. I only have "Stage" as I would only drive myself crazy..ok.. crazier with Standard, moving mic positions or Pro, adjusting every string!..I have all of the single pianos and some electric and one of the old way back in the day piano sets.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by kramster

I really like Pianoteq through my studio monitors...but with decent headphones AMAZING!! .. I only have "Stage" as I would only drive myself crazy..ok.. crazier with Standard, moving mic positions or Pro, adjusting every string!..I have all of the single pianos and some electric and one of the old way back in the day piano sets.

I do seem to recall that there are different versions of Pianoteq - really all the same body of code, but with different features enabled.

The V-Grand has a bunch of adjustments, but these have to do with length and type of strings, the ability to tweak each string independently, and other aspects of the piano itself, but nothing about moving mics around or anything outside of the piano itself. I can adjust strings so that the piano sounds really good wherever it is placed in the room. I can model a 12 foot grand piano if I want to.

The V-Grand has a 240 watt, 4 channel intelligent sound system built in, so that it is constantly shifting what is sent to each speaker in response to what is being played, to create a realistic playing experience. This is not just a digital piano stuffed into a baby grand cabinet as some folks at the piano forum claim (those who have never seen one in real life). Instead, it was designed and built from the ground up to provide a true, immersive piano experience. I can't imagine ever wanting to replace it.

This thing was built to be used in either a solo or orchestral context in places such as Lincoln Center ad other large concert halls. It can certainly fill up the entire floor of my condo building.

Tony

[kramster]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I do seem to recall that there are different versions of Pianoteq - really all the same body of code, but with different features enabled.

The V-Grand has a bunch of adjustments, but these have to do with length and type of strings, the ability to tweak each string independently, and other aspects of the piano itself, but nothing about moving mics around or anything outside of the piano itself. I can adjust strings so that the piano sounds really good wherever it is placed in the room. I can model a 12 foot grand piano if I want to.

The V-Grand has a 240 watt, 4 channel intelligent sound system built in, so that it is constantly shifting what is sent to each speaker in response to what is being played, to create a realistic playing experience. This is not just a digital piano stuffed into a baby grand cabinet as some folks at the piano forum claim (those who have never seen one in real life). Instead, it was designed and built from the ground up to provide a true, immersive piano experience. I can't imagine ever wanting to replace it.

This thing was built to be used in either a solo or orchestral context in places such as Lincoln Center ad other large concert halls. It can certainly fill up the entire floor of my condo building.

Tony

The speaker set up is a definite bonus... I have been messing around trying things with speakers. The monitors and sub (gotta have a subwoofer for the lower register!) sound great for me the player but not so much for the rest of the room.
I tried filling the inside of the piano with various brands of surround sound speakers and another amp (CenterPoint Space Station V3) underneath and other speaker here and there... can't quite get a great sound.. many may not even notice I guess. Aimed speakers up to bounce sound of top and at sound board too with other speakers.
I hear mention electrostatic set ups like on Magnapans and Martin Logans might work best as they can handle the complexities of a good piano sound well enough. and they need really good amps and preamps spelled $$$$ and $$$$...but then there goes my morning bagel money and The Big Guy Forbid, my carbon fiber guitar budget .. sigh...all fun though and part of growing up Kramster.