Schatten HFN (New Design)

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Hey guys I finally got something put together for a video. Take some pity on me at least as it's the first one I've ever done (and probably the only one I'll ever do) and I only did it at the request of others hereto try and help. Apologies for having to use my phone as a recording device and for the sloppy play (I never realized how difficult it is to adapt to different nut sizes when you're constantly switching back and forth). Anyways here's a link:

https://youtu.be/w2hjQgYsTsI

Thanks for the nice comparison video. I'm a big fan of Solsbury Hill, so hearing that one really made me smile.

As for the amplified sounds, I tend to prefer a drier sound than many folks, so I liked the Anthem SL sound a bit more. Most SBTs sound a little too in-the-cave for my particular taste, so the HFN didn't surprise me in that regard. However, the facts that its price competitive and very easy to install or remove are definitely in its favor when compared to other SBTs.

I also tend to like the "air" of an actual mic, so I found the Anthem SL's high end to be a bit more airy and articulate than the HFN sound.

As for the relative signal levels of the pickup systems, that's not terribly relevant as long as its a workable level to feed your amplifying gear. What is relevant, for the more "difficult" gigging environments, is what level you can crank it up to when using a softer playing style. The fact that the HFN's bass was a little boomier on the fingerstyle stuff may indicate that it will be more feedback prone than the Anthem SL in a high volume setting. Whether or not you'll need a higher level of feedback rejection will depend on your gigging environments.

Thanks again for the nice comparison video.

[Marshall]

They are 2 totally different guitars made of totally different materials. Nice video, but I wouldn't put too much credence on how the two guitars sounded different.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Marshall

They are 2 totally different guitars made of totally different materials. Nice video, but I wouldn't put too much credence on how the two guitars sounded different.

This is a good point. However, I do think the pickup, tonal qualities are still heard fairly well. I do feel there's a bit of mic bleed though as both systems sound almost too good to be true.

I think I remember you mentioning that you too heard a bit of piezo tone from the HFN. I definitely hear it as well so I can't say it's 100% natural but with that said, my Amulet M and Anthem SL also had a piezo tone to them so the HFN is comparable. I just find it to sound the fullest/warmest of the three.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Thanks for the nice comparison video. I'm a big fan of Solsbury Hill, so hearing that one really made me smile.

As for the amplified sounds, I tend to prefer a drier sound than many folks, so I liked the Anthem SL sound a bit more. Most SBTs sound a little too in-the-cave for my particular taste, so the HFN didn't surprise me in that regard. However, the facts that its price competitive and very easy to install or remove are definitely in its favor when compared to other SBTs.

I also tend to like the "air" of an actual mic, so I found the Anthem SL's high end to be a bit more airy and articulate than the HFN sound.

As for the relative signal levels of the pickup systems, that's not terribly relevant as long as its a workable level to feed your amplifying gear. What is relevant, for the more "difficult" gigging environments, is what level you can crank it up to when using a softer playing style. The fact that the HFN's bass was a little boomier on the fingerstyle stuff may indicate that it will be more feedback prone than the Anthem SL in a high volume setting. Whether or not you'll need a higher level of feedback rejection will depend on your gigging environments.

Thanks again for the nice comparison video.

Thanks for your comments I do respect your decision "different strokes for different folks". As Marshall mentioned, these 2 guitars are totally different, like apples to oranges different, the Gibson is a nicely balanced dread, not bass heavy like a Martin for instance, whereas the Emerald is a Jumbo body guitar with some pretty deep low end but still nicely balanced overall. Unplugged I love the sound from both of these guitars for different reasons.

When I did the "tape" install method on the Emerald, it did take away a lot of the low end that you mentioned, which was ok as I was able to EQ a lot of it back, but once I tried the putty install all the low end was there and I'm personally quite content to just plug and play with it, except for adding a touch of reverb. I did mention in the description section of the video that I started over and turned the volume down on the amp as the Anthem was too muddy at the higher volume which is something else to consider. I find that at higher volumes the Anthem starts to sound worse and worse, you can clean it back up with EQ and stuff but the Schatten sounds exactly the same no matter the volume level. And yes that is just based on home settings I realize that. In that little room I was in, with the door closed, those Fishman amps can get pretty loud, and I had it up pretty loud initially to the point of nearly deafening myself and neither system was giving feedback. Though based on feedback alone I have no doubt at all that the Anthem would offer better feedback rejection at higher volumes.

Regarding the Anthem, because I initially ripped the full Anthem system out of the Emerald, for those curious I would much prefer the simplicity of the SL version over the full Anthem. With the full Anthem, you do have more control over your sound, but that's not necessarily a good thing I found myself constantly messing with the settings and had less play time. The Anthem SL version is more of a set it and forget it type of system.

Also taking into account that the recording was done with my cell phone, you're not hearing a perfect reflection of what I'm hearing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Anthem SL system it's popular for a reason, my intent is not to hate on it, it has pros and cons like everything else, but I personally think that for a lot less money, you get a better natural sounding pickup with the Schatten.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Thanks for your comments I do respect your decision "different strokes for different folks". As Marshall mentioned, these 2 guitars are totally different, like apples to oranges different, the Gibson is a nicely balanced dread, not bass heavy like a Martin for instance, whereas the Emerald is a Jumbo body guitar with some pretty deep low end but still nicely balanced overall. Unplugged I love the sound from both of these guitars for different reasons.

When I did the "tape" install method on the Emerald, it did take away a lot of the low end that you mentioned, which was ok as I was able to EQ a lot of it back, but once I tried the putty install all the low end was there and I'm personally quite content to just plug and play with it, except for adding a touch of reverb. I did mention in the description section of the video that I started over and turned the volume down on the amp as the Anthem was too muddy at the higher volume which is something else to consider. I find that at higher volumes the Anthem starts to sound worse and worse, you can clean it back up with EQ and stuff but the Schatten sounds exactly the same no matter the volume level. And yes that is just based on home settings I realize that. In that little room I was in, with the door closed, those Fishman amps can get pretty loud, and I had it up pretty loud initially to the point of nearly deafening myself and neither system was giving feedback. Though based on feedback alone I have no doubt at all that the Anthem would offer better feedback rejection at higher volumes.

Regarding the Anthem, because I initially ripped the full Anthem system out of the Emerald, for those curious I would much prefer the simplicity of the SL version over the full Anthem. With the full Anthem, you do have more control over your sound, but that's not necessarily a good thing I found myself constantly messing with the settings and had less play time. The Anthem SL version is more of a set it and forget it type of system.

Also taking into account that the recording was done with my cell phone, you're not hearing a perfect reflection of what I'm hearing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Anthem SL system it's popular for a reason, my intent is not to hate on it, it has pros and cons like everything else, but I personally think that for a lot less money, you get a better natural sounding pickup with the Schatten.

Out of curiosity, is there any way that the HFN install was a bit off in terms of positioning for each try? From my experience, minor movements in the pickup positioning can yield fairly dramatic tonal changes. I am fairly confident that the reason my putty install was a bit bright was due to the fact that it probably wasn't perfectly positioned. I know when I tried the tape the position was a bit different. Obviously both were close to the saddle but it's hard to fully line it up and I think I got it closer with the tape.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Out of curiosity, is there any way that the HFN install was a bit off in terms of positioning for each try? From my experience, minor movements in the pickup positioning can yield fairly dramatic tonal changes. I am fairly confident that the reason my putty install was a bit bright was due to the fact that it probably wasn't perfectly positioned. I know when I tried the tape the position was a bit different. Obviously both were close to the saddle but it's hard to fully line it up and I think I got it closer with the tape.

When I used the tape I experimented with placement a lot. The offset soundhole allowed me to quickly reach in and mess around without having to remove my strings. When I was satisfied with the placement before I used the loctite, my favorite spot was a few mm in favor of the low E string. Like I said I was already quite happy with that, when I read other remarks from people talking about the putty and different materials yielding different tones that's when I said what the heck I'll give the putty a try. I certainly used a lot less than the recommended amount and just slapped it on there in roughly the same spot. Maybe I'll mess around a bit with it later this evening to see what kind of varying results I can get. I am quite happy with it right now so I hope I don't regret messing with it again. I am brave though so we shall see!

[GuitarLuva]

Well I just adjusted the pickup. I took a quick pic before I touched it (something I should've done long ago) and what a laugh I had when I seen it. It was all lopsided and nowhere close to where it should have been. I pulled it out and added some more putty and re-positioned it as follows (this pic is nowhere close to where the pickup was when I did that vid):

[IMG][/IMG]

It's now practically right under my saddle and slightly farther away from the bass strings as my saddle is as well. The image is a little skewed but each end leg lines up with the pins.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Well I just adjusted the pickup. I took a quick pic before I touched it (something I should've done long ago) and what a laugh I had when I seen it. It was all lopsided and nowhere close to where it should have been. I pulled it out and added some more putty and re-positioned it as follows (this pic is nowhere close to where the pickup was when I did that vid):

[IMG][/IMG]

It's now practically right under my saddle and slightly farther away from the bass strings as my saddle is as well. The image is a little skewed but each end leg lines up with the pins.

Wow, that's a lot of putty!

[GuitarLuva]

I never removed the old stuff. I did add a little more to the feet when I removed the pickup so what you're seeing is the old putty smeared with some new as I moved it around. There's actually not much on the feet.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

I never removed the old stuff. I did add a little more to the feet when I removed the pickup so what you're seeing is the old putty smeared with some new as I moved it around. There's actually not much on the feet.

Gotcha. I usually just put a small amount on each foot, never even thought of smearing it like that. The only downside with the putty is that it's fairly easy to remove but I did struggle to get it all off. Some just wouldn't come off the wood.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I think I remember you mentioning that you too heard a bit of piezo tone from the HFN.

If plugged directly into my audio interface or tonedexter set to the pickup you can hear a subtle piezo sound but it is very subtle. Plugged into the Fishman amp I don't hear any. That little amp will color the sound of any pickup and make it sound more natural. It can even remove the nasty quack from a UST, not sure if other acoustic amps can do that, I would imagine they could.

[methodinsane]

Cool thread. Had anybody compared this to a Dazzo setup?

Thanks,
JP

[TNO]

I haven't, but going by the clips on Doug's site the HFN sounds like it's somewhere between Dazzo and K&K and closer to the Dazzos. Based on that I just picked up a HFN to stick in a affordable guitar since it's easily removable. For a lifetime guitar I would probably go with Dazzo.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by methodinsane

Cool thread. Had anybody compared this to a Dazzo setup?

Thanks,
JP

I haven't tried the Dazzo pickup myself but I did watch all the available videos on it and also read a fair amount about it. It gets good reviews and from what I see the biggest issue seems to be getting it installed properly. After all the pickups I've been through over the years I'm quite content with the Schatten HFN. It's an awesome pickup in every way and it's so much cheaper than everything else except the JJB pickup.

[GuitarLuva]

I might do an experiment on my next days off as well by trying the Schatten HFN passive with the Anthem preamp. I'm eventually going to be selling the Anthem system but it will be an easy experiment to do and I am curious how it will blend with the tru mic.