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  #1  
Old 01-27-2019, 12:34 AM
btbliatout btbliatout is offline
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Default Rainsong Nut and Saddle Replacement

Good Folks of the CF Forum,

i just wanted to share my experience with changing out the nut and saddle on my Rainsong CH-WS1000NS.

To start with, why did I change them? The instrument always sounded great, but I've had mine for less than a year, and after two string changes, the Tusq saddle it came with had wear in it that was not acceptable to me, considering how new it was. And while I don't know if the wear was responsible for the intonation issues, I knew the intonation could be better.

I took it to a local shop and had the nut and saddle replaced with bone, and had them tailored to D'Addario EJ40 Silk and Steel strings.

Got it back, and while I can't tell you that the tone was affected in a meaningful way (may be my lack ear training), it came back with darn near perfect intonation at the 12th fret, and feels and plays great.

As for aesthetics, I went with bleached bone, and the white matches the white Rainsong logo well. The Tusq nut and saddle was dark dark grey, which paired well with the CF of the guitar, but the white of the bone is definitely a reasonable trim color, and as mentioned, matches the logo on the headstock.

For any Rainsong owners who are interested in replacing their nut or saddle, for the sake of record keeping, there's one person in Portland, OR who went with bone and was quite happy with the results.

Cheers!
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:11 AM
Aspiring Aspiring is offline
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I ordered one of the bone compensated saddles that are meant for Taylor's from Amazon and sanded it to shape myself along with adjusting the intonation on my Rainsong ch-pa.

I took the action down about 2/32 from stock and in particular on the d and g string. The factory saddle is Tusq made for Taylor and is made with a 16" radius that doesn't match the 20" radius on the RainSong.

The playability is definitely better and the intonation is better than stock. The tone is definitely at least as good or better to my ears.
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:19 PM
btbliatout btbliatout is offline
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Aspiring: I wasn't aware that the factory saddle was built for a different radius. It now makes all the sense in the world that the intonation wasn't as good as it could be out of the box. Thanks for that bit of info!


All: As a side question, has anyone else felt that Tusq wears too fast?
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:43 PM
MiG50 MiG50 is offline
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So far as I understand it, MacNichol still does this sort of thing, even though his shop is now closed. For those who don't know, he was a strong devotee of carbon fiber instruments, and had/has a lot of experience with them. But I think he solely does bone nut and saddle replacements now.
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:21 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btbliatout View Post
All: As a side question, has anyone else felt that Tusq wears too fast?
No, I've found TUSQ to be quite wear-resistant and if your saddle and nut showed excessive wear after only two string changes, either you retune frequently or the TUSQ formulation in those two items was a bad mix.
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:28 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btbliatout View Post
Aspiring: I wasn't aware that the factory saddle was built for a different radius. It now makes all the sense in the world that the intonation wasn't as good as it could be out of the box. Thanks for that bit of info!
My theory is that RainSong uses a 16 inch radius saddle to help compensate for the normal for RainSong slight dishing in the guitar's top. Thus, the 16 inch radius bridgesaddle, when under string-pressure, flattens a bit in its center to conform to the top's dishing, resulting in about a 20 inch bridgesaddle radius to closer match that of the fingerboard.
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:29 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Well there is Tusq and there is Tusq. The white nuts and saddles are pretty hard, not quite as hard as bone, but much closer than not. Black Tusq is softer and incorporates some lubricity. It acts like graphite lube but also wears quicker. That is my understanding.

FWIW my 2001 Rainsong WS-1000 still has the factory original nut and saddle after nearly 18 years of serious play. No need to fix what ain't broken. I'm the kind of guy who doesn't replace nuts, saddles or bridge pins - except when they are actually worn or for aesthetic reasons (bridge pins).
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:47 PM
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David Eastwood David Eastwood is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
My theory is that RainSong uses a 16 inch radius saddle to help compensate for the normal for RainSong slight dishing in the guitar's top. Thus, the 16 inch radius bridgesaddle, when under string-pressure, flattens a bit in its center to conform to the top's dishing, resulting in about a 20 inch bridgesaddle radius to closer match that of the fingerboard.
I don’t see how a saddle could bend like that...
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Old 01-27-2019, 02:03 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Furthermore, neither of my Rainsong guitars has dishing at the sound hole. They both have woven CF tops, not the unidirectional C-H or Hybrid type of top.
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Old 01-27-2019, 02:07 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by eatswodo View Post
I don’t see how a saddle could bend like that...
It's only my theory, and there is some flexibility in TUSQ and bone. As a former dozen or so RainSong owner, I don't want to believe that the company would resort to a Mickey Mouse approach to compensate for an ongoing manufacturing process that results in top-dishing. Frankly, I don't want to believe that every RainSong I've owned has had some top-dishing to varying amounts but they have and it's my theory that the 16-inch radius saddle helps match the saddle to the fingerboard radius when the saddle is under string pressure. Another reason to use the 16 inch radius saddle is that I don't think TUSQ makes a 20 inch radius saddle so the 16 inch radius saddle takes care of two niggling problems for RainSong.
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Old 01-27-2019, 02:10 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
Furthermore, neither of my Rainsong guitars has dishing at the sound hole. They both have woven CF tops, not the unidirectional C-H or Hybrid type of top.
I've only bought full-carbon high-end RainSongs and based on that the Unidirectional tops are the most prone to dishing. I've found the "Classic" tops are the lesser prone to dishing but it was always there in my guitars. You're either very fortunate or RainSong has fixed the dishing since my last purchase circa 2014. I should never have brought this problem up but I've been making folks aware of it since I bought my first RainSong in 2007 because as a tool-maker/machinist it bothers me.
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 01-27-2019 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 01-27-2019, 02:39 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Fair enough, SpruceTop. If I look really hard slight dishing can be seen between the sound hole and the end of the fret board - almost imperceptible and then only under just the right lighting conditions. My estimate is that it is 0.002" or less.

I never noticed it in seventeen years of ownership until posts on this forum brought up the issue last year, and I went looking under good light. Mine are from 2001 and 2005 and use the Classic woven tops. A fellow machinist here (a long time ago to put myself through school as a mechanical engineer).
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Old 01-27-2019, 03:50 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
Fair enough, SpruceTop. If I look really hard slight dishing can be seen between the sound hole and the end of the fret board - almost imperceptible and then only under just the right lighting conditions. My estimate is that it is 0.002" or less.

I never noticed it in seventeen years of ownership until posts on this forum brought up the issue last year, and I went looking under good light. Mine are from 2001 and 2005 and use the Classic woven tops. A fellow machinist here (a long time ago to put myself through school as a mechanical engineer).
Earl, You Got A Good Un! Enjoy for many more years to come!
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Old 01-28-2019, 09:45 AM
btbliatout btbliatout is offline
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My Rainsong has some dishing at the sound hole too. It's generally not noticable, but I took note of it early on when I saw some light reflections that made it jump out.

While I'm not a fan of it aesthetically, I don't take issue with it. I'd probably be upset if I got a Black Ice, but I got one from their economy line, and with the intent to travel/camp with it.

I'm glad the dishing was documented here though. I was concerned that mine may have been damaged or some how had a manufacturing defect, but was set at ease that that wasn't the case.
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:48 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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It is a no brace design which is why they sound the way they do (which might be good or bad depending on your point of view). To be a good acoustic resonator it must be light, strong enough to not collapse, and therefore it won't be flat without some design contortions aimed at that goal (which is likely not consistent with optimizing volume, tone, or cost of manufacture). No one expects a wood flat top guitar to be flat, but somehow we set that expectation for some CF guitars. Possibly it is the training we have about a dried out wood guitar that brings a prejudice to the RainSong design.

The ones with the ablam rosette are flatter around the sound hole as it acts as a stiffener.
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