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Old 07-09-2021, 02:54 PM
TygerBright TygerBright is offline
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Default Beginner player over reaching - learning strategy advice please!

Hi all

I'm a beginner player but I have taken on possibly more than I can chew and looking for advice.

When I picked up my self-learning journey last April I initially focused on open chords and strumming but have in the last few months stumbled on finger style and I'm really loving the sound my guitar makes when I manage to get it nailed. I have a Taylor Academy 12 and it just sounds so much sweeter with finger style versus strumming and that must be part of what is drawing me towards this way of playing.


I've been following this video on YouTube of Pachelbel's Canon in D as my first piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RetDIQHunsw&t=0s

A couple of Qs related to my journey with this:


Firstly, do you think the piece is aimed at more intermediate / advanced players ... or as a beginner it's something that can be achieved with time and patience?

There are lots of things going on (for me at least!) but I do love this piece and I'd be so happy to play this with a reasonable level of competency... currently targeting the end of the year (!)


Secondly, how would you suggest I approach learning something like this? So far, I've learned all the chords and picking for the first minute of the piece as played by the great teacher in the beginning of the video.

But recently, I've decided to hold off on learning any more segments and switched to just repeating over and over the early part where I am struggling where I need to play the Bm and Fm chords early on. I'm now seeing improvements here - both were REALLY hard for me to nail and Fm felt impossible but I'm definitely getting there! I was thinking to follow a similar approach with some of the other complex 'phrases' that come a bit later - crazy stretches, a slide and some quick playing parts. i.e. just play those bits over and over till confident.

I'm just not sure if that is the right approach ... compared to my original plan which was to learn the whole piece from start to end - i.e. commit to memory the chords and finger positions .. and then play the whole piece over and over again and again and then I would hope the tricky bits get resolved during that process.

Or perhaps there are other ways to tackle this that I've not considered.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Last edited by TygerBright; 07-09-2021 at 04:37 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-09-2021, 03:27 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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I think you keep working on it, but also work on other things. This is an intermediate piece, in my opinion, and I don't like ranking things like that, but a risk you run is that certain sections will occupy all of your time and your net result after months of hard work is just...one piece.

What's great about this arrangement is it gets progressively more difficult.

So I say you play it til you get stuck, identify what's hanging you up, and learn some other songs that do similar things. This way you won't get bored, but the prize remains learning the full arrangement.

Just my two cents...keep burning bright!
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Old 07-10-2021, 04:41 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TygerBright View Post
Firstly, do you think the piece is aimed at more intermediate / advanced players ... or as a beginner it's something that can be achieved with time and patience?
Everything "can be achieved with time and patience" - provided you have enough of both! That's the question.

For beginner, such a piece might well test you to the limits of both. But the opening is certainly a simple enough entry to the technique - it sounds extremely simple, but makes a good exercise in keeping time and feeling in control.
Beyond there, it's a good intermediate exercise in classical RH arpeggiation, with relatively simple LH chord shapes. (Of course "intermediate" covers a whole lot of ground: from "just past beginner" to "nearly advanced" - that could mean years or even decades of progress!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TygerBright View Post
Secondly, how would you suggest I approach learning something like this? So far, I've learned all the chords and picking for the first minute of the piece as played by the great teacher in the beginning of the video.

But recently, I've decided to hold off on learning any more segments and switched to just repeating over and over the early part where I am struggling where I need to play the Bm and Fm chords early on. I'm now seeing improvements here - both were REALLY hard for me to nail and Fm felt impossible but I'm definitely getting there! I was thinking to follow a similar approach with some of the other complex 'phrases' that come a bit later - crazy stretches, a slide and some quick playing parts. i.e. just play those bits over and over till confident.

I'm just not sure if that is the right approach ... compared to my original plan which was to learn the whole piece from start to end - i.e. commit to memory the chords and finger positions .. and then play the whole piece over and over again and again and then I would hope the tricky bits get resolved during that process.

Or perhaps there are other ways to tackle this that I've not considered.
I think you've got the right idea. There's no harm in "sketching" your way through the whole thing, just to get an idea of what's ahead of you. But don't think too much about the whole piece - put it to the back of your mind. Go back and work on each stage, right down to the details, getting confident with each bar (each beat, each chord shape, each pattern), before stringing them together. I.e., learning a piece like this - any piece - is a linear process: "one thing leads to another" - that's how the brain processes the memory, how the finger memory works.

If you find yourself getting frustrated or bored - which is quite likely with a long and complex piece (that "time and patience" question ) - take breaks, work on an easier tune alongside it, or try some classical RH exercises, such as Giuliani's 120:
https://www.classicalguitarshed.com/...20-right-hand/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBhg_ox4pGo

Obviously that's for classical (nylon-string, not steel string), but it's good for all types of fingerstyle. For folk and blues styles (if you want to move to them), you don't need to be as strict with guitar or hand position, but the RH training is still very useful.
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Old 07-10-2021, 06:51 AM
Aspiring Aspiring is offline
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My teacher showed me a way of learning pieces essentially in chunks but learning them backwards

The concept is to start with a measure that is tricky and keep learning it and adding in more stuff in front of it

The idea is that you are practicing the new bits first and then moving into places you have more confidence in.

I have definitely had good success with this.
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Old 07-10-2021, 07:56 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Over a forty minute video to study for this one piece! Probably could learn it note for note but you may be sick of it by then.

At least use the video with the tab:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNvf_8h2qcA

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Old 07-10-2021, 08:27 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Just to add...

When I started teaching young kids (aged 7-10), I was struck by the linear, instinctive way they insisted on learning. This was decades after I'd taught myself, but it did bring back memories.

I.e., whenever I tried to get them to go over a trickier bar or two in the middle of a tune they were working on, they would always have to take a run up to it, usually from the very beginning.

There's a kid I'm taking through grade 4 now, who is 10 or 11 (I don't know exactly), and he hates reading (either notation or tab) and commits whole tunes to memory. But whenever I want him to practice just one tricky bar that's giving him problems, he instinctively starts from the beginning of the whole piece every time.

It's these experiences that convince me it's the natural way to learn. Nobody (least of all me!) is telling them to learn this way.
Sometimes, of course, you have to force yourself to focus on just one bar in the middle of a tune, if you keep stumbling on it every time you get there. But the way the brain likes to memorise things (at least things like musical pieces, which unfold over time) is linear: bar by bar, beat by beat.

I re-discovered this myself a couple of years ago, when I taught myself Bert Jansch's Chambertin. When I first heard it, I thought it was way beyond me. But I sat down and worked through it steadily, bar by bar, gradually stringing them together. And eventually I got it. I became aware of the overall form as I did that, I didn't have to struggle all the way through first.
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Last edited by JonPR; 07-10-2021 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 07-10-2021, 08:40 AM
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First - its intermediate I would think, but when an expert plays it, it seems easy.

Here's my favorite version - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXC9tuumjiA

Secondly:

If chord positions within a tune are giving you a problem you have to put the tune away and work on chord exercises for those troublesome chords.

You should practice changing from an easier chord you can play to the ones you can't while strumming an even tempo. Don't sacrifice accuracy and tone for speed. Speed comes on its own. Also, make sure the notation calls for the entire chord to be formed at the same time, sometimes it really doesn't.

Trouble spots should be isolated and worked on specifically. Don't play 4 measures to get to a trouble spot in the 4th measure. Start at the previous position and end at the following position, repeat until fingers fall off.


You might want to look at this too

https://www.thisisclassicalguitar.co...eces-volume-1/

The tunes are in notation and also notation with tab.
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Last edited by TBman; 07-10-2021 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 07-10-2021, 12:55 PM
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I can't speak for others. I don't know their circumstances. For me, my attitude is that a series of small successes always work better than one gigantic failure. If it were me, I would break it down some way so that I could learn it in small pieces that I could pull together at some point.
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Old 07-14-2021, 12:58 PM
TygerBright TygerBright is offline
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Many thanks to all for replying - appreciate you taking the time out!

Lots of good advice and it seems I'm generally on the right track so will continue to work through sections and where I get stuck will repeat over and over.

As for the 40 minute video ... it's long for sure but I'm going to only learn up to the 27 minute mark which is a nice chunk with a clean break and gives about 1.30 mins of actual playing time. I'm currently at 20mins ... so not long left

I also will continue to intersperse my strumming chords as well every few days as I want to improve on that aspect also.
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Old 07-18-2021, 10:18 AM
MisterOM MisterOM is offline
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My approach has always been to take things in small, bite sized chunks (as others have mentioned). When I started playing fingerstyle I started with Dust In The Wind. I identified the repeating 8 note sequence and just played that over and over, slowly, holding a C chord. Once that got into my "database" (which took a while) I added the chord changes and ultimately the picking pattern variations. I think you can do the same with Canon. Just take it slow, I can't stress that enough. Set realistic goals and enjoy the journey.
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Old 07-19-2021, 05:14 PM
JonWer JonWer is offline
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I am a beginner, starting year 2. First guitar was a Taylor academy 10e. My teacher suggested putting nylon strings on it, which made things easier for me. I eventually bought a classical guitar and started with Christopher Parkening’s method. This may be worth looking at and will help with fingerstyle.

If you can afford it, I’d encourage you to find an instructor with patience for teaching beginners, and take some lessons. The accountability alone will keep you focused.
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:44 PM
biotechmgr biotechmgr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterOM View Post
My approach has always been to take things in small, bite sized chunks (as others have mentioned). When I started playing fingerstyle I started with Dust In The Wind. I identified the repeating 8 note sequence and just played that over and over, slowly, holding a C chord. Once that got into my "database" (which took a while) I added the chord changes and ultimately the picking pattern variations. I think you can do the same with Canon. Just take it slow, I can't stress that enough. Set realistic goals and enjoy the journey.
Agree I tried to swallow DITW whole and it taught me patience to take more time and learn in pieces.
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