I returned the Emerald X10

[KarenB]

Mountainmaster. Not sure if what you wrote qualifies as a "rant." It's much to well thought out. Yeah, I would be ranting if this happened to me, but I'd be stomping around the house and using words that would get me thrown off the forum if I wrote them in a post.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by mountainmaster

The proper way IMO is to keep the bridge in its regular position and extend the neck. Unless you are intentionally looking for a different tonal character of course. However, a standard X7 already has its bridge in the so-called sweet spot. So I do not see any reason to change this.

What you say makes perfect sense.

Theoretically.

But, if you think about how Emerald (probably) makes these guitars, it's an awful lot easier to adjust the position of the bridge on the body, and tweak the fret placement, than it is to arbitrarily add another 0.6" at the nut end.

The first option requires no changes in the standard mould; the second would require substantial modification.

Again, this just reinforces the fact that you need to be very specific about your requirements before you order, and understand that adding or knocking off a half-inch here and there is likely a lot more than, well, just adding or knocking off a half-inch here or there

Eatswodo;

Well said! This is an interesting conversation.

[steelvibe]

Well stated David, a whole new mould would increase cost I would imagine, but those would be flags during consultation?

It is both buyer beware and that custom guitars cannot be returned. Emerald isn't the only manufacturer that does this either.

[Tom2]

Originally Posted by mountainmaster

The scale of my X7 Nylon is 24.9" but Emerald did not make the neck much longer. Instead they simply moved the bridge further down, which may have changed the tonal character of the guitar.

Wow. As someone (very) slowly preparing to acquire a custom nylon, I find this disturbing.

Bridge position defines tone. Any sane person would naturally assume that a custom scale length would be accomplished by changing the neck length. Custom bridge location is a legitimate option, for tonal purposes, but not as an arbitrary byproduct of changing scale length.

Of course, simply moving the bridge and relocating frets is cheaper from a manufacturing perspective. But players willing to pay extra for a custom guitar are, by definition, not looking to lower the overall cost at the expense of tone.

As with Karen, I also choose to refrain from using language that accurately reflects how I feel about this. I'm actually hesitant to say as much as I did, but the topic does bring up luthiery and ethical questions that are worthy of consideration.

[philjs]

Seems to me that folks are forgetting something important for CF guitars:

There are NO braces in the top of a CF guitar.

I think that moving the bridge and underlying "plate" -- when the entire top is free to move -- is far less of an issue than it is with a standard-braced "keep-it-from-imploding" top where the "sweet spot" is constrained by that bracing pattern.

Phil

[oscarvan]

Originally Posted by philjs

Seems to me that folks are forgetting something important for CF guitars:

There are NO braces in the top of a CF guitar.

I think that moving the bridge and underlying "plate" -- when the entire top is free to move -- is far less of an issue than it is with a standard-braced "keep-it-from-imploding" top where the "sweet spot" is constrained by that bracing pattern.

Phil

Absolutely true. That said, there is an "epicenter of vibration".... so there are limits to where you can put it in that respect.

Phil;

Extraordinarily nice guitar work. I will never be that good, but I appreciate the talent and persistence that it takes.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Tom2

Wow. As someone (very) slowly preparing to acquire a custom nylon, I find this disturbing.

Bridge position defines tone. Any sane person would naturally assume that a custom scale length would be accomplished by changing the neck length. Custom bridge location is a legitimate option, for tonal purposes, but not as an arbitrary byproduct of changing scale length.

Of course, simply moving the bridge and relocating frets is cheaper from a manufacturing perspective. But players willing to pay extra for a custom guitar are, by definition, not looking to lower the overall cost at the expense of tone.

As with Karen, I also choose to refrain from using language that accurately reflects how I feel about this. I'm actually hesitant to say as much as I did, but the topic does bring up luthiery and ethical questions that are worthy of consideration.

I think you’re taking this rather too seriously, and to question the ‘ethics’ of the maker, as if they’re trying to pull a fast one, is a bit much.

Why don’t you simply tell Emerald what you’re looking for, and see whether they can oblige?

I always take Tom 2 seriously, he has done some of the most meticulous work on this forum when it comes to nylon strung guitars.

However, I am also convinced that emerging materials, builds, and shapes change the nature of the guitar. There may no longer be a unique position that Oscar calls the "epicenter of vibration." Traditional wisdom may not cover all the possible methods of guitar production.

While I've argued that CF has yet to match wooden instruments in projection, I have had no problems with tonal qualities in my 4 Emeralds..

[Tom2]

I consider full disclosure to be a matter of ethics. Telling me that I am taking this too seriously is like telling Mountainmaster that he is taking it too seriously for buying a custom, non returnable guitar and not receiving what he was expecting. This is a problem.

Was it caused by Mountainmaster for not being specific in his request, or by Emerald for not stating up front that a custom scale length changes the bridge location and not the neck length?

Emerald offers custom neck width, neck profile, and scale length. Changing the neck width or profile requires a custom neck. Changing the scale length also requires a custom neck if the standard bridge location is to be preserved. Bridge location is an integral part of the overall guitar design. It's not arbitrary, and it definitely affects tone.

In fact, Emerald's F.A.Q. page combines custom neck width, scale length, and neck profile in a single question. This implies that all three customizations involve creating a custom neck.

Any customer who purchases a custom X7, and does not specifically request a change in bridge location, should reasonably expect to receive a guitar with the bridge in the standard location. If Emerald changes this without first notifying the customer, they are essentially saying that bridge location doesn't matter and you get what you get.

I would expect any competent luthier to honor their own design when offering custom options. Expecting a customer to know that a custom scale length also changes bridge location is not okay, especially when all other customizations do involve creating a custom neck.

Also, a drum head doesn't have any braces either, but the tone is drastically different if it is struck in the center or near the rim.

While this bridge issue is definitely a problem, it's a fixable one. All it takes is full disclosure, and providing the customer up front the option of preserving standard bridge location and changing neck length, or preserving standard neck length and repositioning the bridge. Simple and direct.

Personally, I use all reports of custom Emerald guitars as a learning experience in preparation for my own custom nylon. Moving the bridge without telling the customer was shocking to me.

Learning from other people's experience is a good thing. Pointing out where Emerald could communicate more clearly, so the Mountainmaster experience doesn't happen again, is also a good thing. Plus, Evan finds this to be an interesting conversation, so I'm just doing my part.

In the end, it's all good. So if it isn't good, it isn't the end.

[RP]

Emerald guitars seem to be gaining in popularity, at least on this subforum of AGF. I understand that that's a pretty small subset, but given that they export approximately 600 guitars to the US annually, have no dealer network and pride themselves on custom orders, it's important that there's a place where all aspects of Emerald ordering and ownership can be discussed. While the extent and breadth of our concerns will vary, it's a good thing that there are those who do take these concerns very seriously...

[steelvibe]

I'm actually reconsidering what I said earlier about buyer beware. I didn't quite grasp what Mountain was saying but now I get it fully. Did you ever post pictures of this Mountain? In my view, this would be a major issue if not disclosed during consultation.

It's very simple; a non-returnable custom guitar that doesn't meet my exact expectations at the very least is a non-returning customer. and could give significant pause to a new customer considering a purchase.

[Captain Jim]

There was discussion when I asked for a shorter scale on my X10. I requested 24.875" and was told 24.6" would be better for that body and would result in a 13-fret to the body. I depended on Emerald to give me guidance as that build progressed. While it took longer than I expected, the guitar arrived as I expected the build to be.

I think each manufacturer has "their way" of making changes... in a 12-fret, Taylor moves the bridge down into the lower bout; Martin extends the upper bout of the body. Is one choice "better" than the other? Not that I see - it is a designer/builder choice. I prefer Taylor's way of doing it, because it preserves the body size, and according to Bob Taylor, moving the bridge down results in a warmer sound.

I don't see that Emerald is having any kind of a "disclosure" issue. A communication issue? That goes both ways - if you are requesting a custom change, there should be some discussion about expectations from both sides. I agree that Sean was an asset for Emerald, both in personality and keeping an open flow of discussion. If you request a "shorter scale" but don't specify (or discuss) how that should be accomplished, that is a communication issue. If you were to say, "Pick me out a cool veneer," and don't specify what wood, grain pattern, or position, you may be surprised (good or bad).

Emerald holds a unique position in the carbon fiber realm, in that they are willing to consider custom requests. RainSong has recently started offering spruce veneer tops, but you don't see them saying, "Contact us for other veneer options." Some of us find the N2 or NS neck too chunky, but you don't see RS offering to custom make you something more to your liking. I would think that every custom Emerald makes is the chance for a unique success or a disappointment... open discussion is the key, and that means from both sides.

Even custom colors are tough. There are a few other CF makers who offer colored tops, but you get what they make... you can request a color "to match your eyes," but you know what the answer will be. When you are tinting color over black fiber cloth, there are inherent limitations. The silver carbon fiber weave that we've seen offers brighter results... but, at this point, you don't see anyone but Emerald using that.

They seem to be willing to "go beyond" the ordinary. I think that takes guts. If a customer says, "Blue," see how many shades of blue there are on a Pantone chart... and RGB or CMYK?

I think we all have an idea in our heads about what would be "the perfect" guitar. It takes a lot of communication to get that idea out and transformed into an instrument.

Tom2;

I find the discussion not just interesting, it is informative and provocative.

The information is new to me. At first I failed to see how there could be a problem since my Emerald's have had great intonation and nice tonal qualities. But I understand the distinctions being made and find them informative.

I also see the issue of transparency and why it would be provocative. I believe that argument is important and I think you are a good arguer.

I presume that Emerald will benefit from the information and provocation.