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Old 07-17-2020, 08:28 PM
dmcginnis dmcginnis is offline
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Default Volume of Emerald X-30 compared to X-20?

Hi all - apologies if this has been covered before I play in traditional Irish music sessions accompanying fiddles, flutes, button boxes, etc. I usually play my McIlroy wooden guitar, but sometimes would like to have a carbon fiber guitar to use instead. My Emerald X-7 is great, but does not have enough volume to really hold its own in a session with 10-15 other players. So, I am considering getting another Emerald and I am curious to hear your opinions on the X-20 vs the X-30. Strumming it the important and the key thing to me is good balance with the other instruments (I see accompaniment as a support service, not a driving factor). Thanks for any thoughts you have on the volume and tonal characteristics of the X-20 and X-30 in an Irish trad situation (or any group play situation).

Thanks,
Dave
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:58 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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I have both and the X30 is louder than the X20 and is better for strumming too IMO. With light strings the volume difference isn't drastic between them. I just put mediums on the X30 for the first time this week and it's much louder with mediums and will be my string of choice on it from here on in.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:09 AM
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I owned both at the same time and agree the X30 overall is a louder/Bigger sound. Not by much but enough I could tell the difference. I ended up using a medium/light or bluegrass set on the X30 and it had a powerful sound and was still easy enough on the fingers.
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Old 07-18-2020, 05:15 AM
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One time I accompanied a violin player with my X30. No amplification. Afterwards he complimented my sound. That should tell you enough.

But beware: We had a few parts where I switched to delicate finger picking and he had to hold back considerably. And that's just one violin.
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Old 07-18-2020, 07:45 AM
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Clearly this question calls for a subjective answer. I was selling a Taylor dread a while back, and a prospective buyer - yeh right - asked me how loud it was. I told him it depended on how hard he'd play it. For whatever reason, I think (and hear) more in terms of resonance than loudness. That aside, I didn't get a chance to play my previous X20 and my X30 side-by-side but my recollection from a 70 year-old brain is that the X30 is exponentially more resonant than my X20 was. I always thought my X20 was a bit, well muffled, but the X30 begs me to play with a light touch. I think that the deep box of the X30 gives it a boomy resonance to which the X20 doesn't come close...
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Last edited by RP; 07-18-2020 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 07-18-2020, 10:24 AM
dmcginnis dmcginnis is offline
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RP - thanks for that answer as it makes sense to me. Resonance is really a key. My McIlroy has loads of resonance and complexity compared to my X-7. I can dig in and get more volume if needed, but playing with a lighter touch with a thinner pick really makes the guitar do what I need it to do. With the X-7, I feel like I need to play harder more of the time. Interesting....
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Old 07-18-2020, 11:52 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Dave, I have both an X20 and an X30. The X30 has a bigger, bolder sound and its tone and volume compares nicely against a Martin D-28. (Not just my opinion -- thoughts shared by a guitar building friend who loves his four Martin guitars, and built a D18 clone for himself at a lutherie school). He bought an X30 because he really liked the sound, and it works well for him at bluegrass jams. The X20 (to me) sounds more like a good 000-28. It is a little more balanced across the spectrum with slightly less horsepower overall. I have been playing my remaining Taylor guitars lately, and going back to the X20 yesterday just felts like "home".

Loudness is a deceptively complex topic, and good data is hard to come by. My day job is acoustics and noise measurements. Repeatable test conditions are challenging if you want to get meaningful results. You can't just randomly strum the guitar in front of a sound meter app on a smart phone and get reliable numbers. There are too many variables like strum stroke and intensity, the pick used, effects of room acoustics, mic position, meter accuracy, etc. With 37 years of experience, I know what I'm doing and have access to $6000+ lab-grade Type 1 sound meters. Yet I've never acquired SPL data for guitars that I would be at all confident publishing. The best anyone could reasonably do is same room / same day/ same player / same pick. Emerald had a video about a year ago (?) where they measured most of their models with an inexpensive sound meter. The results showed essentially the same sound levels. Variations of 1/10th dB cannot be heard.
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Old 07-18-2020, 04:11 PM
esimms86 esimms86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
Dave, I have both an X20 and an X30. The X30 has a bigger, bolder sound and its tone and volume compares nicely against a Martin D-28. (Not just my opinion -- thoughts shared by a guitar building friend who loves his four Martin guitars, and built a D18 clone for himself at a lutherie school). He bought an X30 because he really liked the sound, and it works well for him at bluegrass jams. The X20 (to me) sounds more like a good 000-28. It is a little more balanced across the spectrum with slightly less horsepower overall. I have been playing my remaining Taylor guitars lately, and going back to the X20 yesterday just felts like "home".

Loudness is a deceptively complex topic, and good data is hard to come by. My day job is acoustics and noise measurements. Repeatable test conditions are challenging if you want to get meaningful results. You can't just randomly strum the guitar in front of a sound meter app on a smart phone and get reliable numbers. There are too many variables like strum stroke and intensity, the pick used, effects of room acoustics, mic position, meter accuracy, etc. With 37 years of experience, I know what I'm doing and have access to $6000+ lab-grade Type 1 sound meters. Yet I've never acquired SPL data for guitars that I would be at all confident publishing. The best anyone could reasonably do is same room / same day/ same player / same pick. Emerald had a video about a year ago (?) where they measured most of their models with an inexpensive sound meter. The results showed essentially the same sound levels. Variations of 1/10th dB cannot be heard.
Earl49, pardon my naivete but what would be the result of carefully controlled(as much as possible) testing in an anechoic chamber(which is, admittedly, far from real world conditions)?
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Old 07-19-2020, 11:21 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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An anechoic room just takes one of the many variables out of it. Outdoors on grass or loose soil is effectively anechoic if the background noise is quiet enough where you are -- all of the sound goes outward and very little comes back. To get good repeatable SPL data, you would have to experiment with an array of microphone positions and placements, to get the "best" projected sound. Once you've settled on microphone placement, then use a mechanical fixture and the same pick to get consistent force and motion into the strum stroke. While I could do all that, I'm still working full time and have many other professional and personal projects that are WAY higher on the list. If a manufacturer approached me, I would quote $20K minimum for such a research project. I doubt that anyone cares THAT much.

Loudness in crude terms can be measured by the A-weighted level, or dBA, being the easiest metric to use. But what do you count? Sound level can be expressed as the Leq or average, the Lmax, the Lpeak (not the same as Lmax BTW) etc? Do you use slow, fast, or impulse time settings on the meter? Do you just do one single strum or a continuous series of strums to average over 15-20 seconds? True loudness measurements and comparative scores consume whole chapters in my textbooks and are unwieldy at best.
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Old 07-19-2020, 11:36 AM
kramster kramster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
An anechoic room just takes one of the many variables out of it. Outdoors on grass or loose soil is effectively anechoic if the background noise is quiet enough where you are -- all of the sound goes outward and very little comes back. To get good repeatable SPL data, you would have to experiment with an array of microphone positions and placements, to get the "best" projected sound. Once you've settled on microphone placement, then use a mechanical fixture and the same pick to get consistent force and motion into the strum stroke. While I could do all that, I'm still working full time and have many other professional and personal projects that are WAY higher on the list. If a manufacturer approached me, I would quote $20K minimum for such a research project. I doubt that anyone cares THAT much.

Loudness in crude terms can be measured by the A-weighted level, or dBA, being the easiest metric to use. But what do you count? Sound level can be expressed as the Leq or average, the Lmax, the Lpeak (not the same as Lmax BTW) etc? Do you use slow, fast, or impulse time settings on the meter? Do you just do one single strum or a continuous series of strums to average over 15-20 seconds? True loudness measurements and comparative scores consume whole chapters in my textbooks and are unwieldy at best.
Good stuff ..though after reading it 1 1/2 times I had to take a nap.
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Old 07-19-2020, 11:56 AM
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I went back and forth between several guitars when I was sitting around in a certain shop in Ireland in 2018. I think the take away between the X7, X20 and X30 are how filled up with sound I felt. The X7V3 is nice for plugging in or playing when there's not much environmental noise. The X20 is louder and vibrates my insides more. The X30 is the choice of the three in my opinion if you want to really feel the vibrations through your body from your waist to your chest.

However, I was in a position where I could only choose one. I already have an X20. The X30 is the clear choice between the two from the player's perspective, but it's not all that much more than the X20. Or at least not enough more to get me to sell my X20 and take in an X30. In that light I went for something completely different and got a Kestrel. It cuts through everything with its mid-range. It's probably not what you want though.

My goal is to get to the one guitar that's perfect for me. I had two guitars when I started this goal and after much deliberation and agonizing I'm now closer to my goal with almost a dozen guitars and still swimming.
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Old 07-19-2020, 12:56 PM
dmcginnis dmcginnis is offline
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One thing I really value is comments from melody players in my sessions - so have any of you received comments on the sound of your X-20 or X-30 from other players when in a group session/jam?
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:50 PM
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For me, a general impression would be fine, and I would want to be out front. I have some friends who are consistent enough players that could play a song or two back and forth and I’d get a sense of what sounds louder to me. I’d play them, as well (of course), but that would be good enough for me. I realize that we all hear differently, and perhaps one would “cut through” better and maybe appear louder...but that would work for me. If I think one can be heard more easily over the other, I’d be happy. I know that is a simplistic approach, but I can work with that.
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Old 07-19-2020, 03:19 PM
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Personally if i was going to be playing in a group with other guitars i would reach for an x20. Its stronger in the mid and upper ranges, which tends to be where i find myself playing more.

If your more of a chord player, providing backing for others the x30 has a strong bottom end suited to that kind of thing. I wouldnt say its particularly louder overall. One thing i noticed while playing the x30 was that id tend to sit with the sound hole facing away from me as much as possible so that i could hear other players clearer.

A fairly minor note, as i do tend to play further up the neck when with others, i usually hold the guitar in the classical position. The x20 suited me more for this. The x30 being larger and having an asymmetrical knee cutout can make it slightly less comfortable when held on the left leg.

Overall i dont think ones particularly better than the other, it comes down to style and preference. Different horses for different courses as they say!

Simon

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Old 07-19-2020, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgavy View Post
Personally if i was going to be playing in a group with other guitars i would reach for an x20. Its stronger in the mid and upper ranges, which tends to be where i find myself playing more.

If your more of a chord player, providing backing for others the x30 has a strong bottom end suited to that kind of thing. I wouldnt say its particularly louder overall. One thing i noticed while playing the x30 was that id tend to sit with the sound hole facing away from me as much as possible so that i could hear other players clearer.

A fairly minor note, as i do tend to play further up the neck when with others, i usually hold the guitar in the classical position. The x20 suited me more for this. The x30 being larger and having an asymmetrical knee cutout can make it slightly less comfortable when held on the left leg.

Overall i dont think ones particularly better than the other, it comes down to style and preference. Different horses for different courses as they say!

Simon

(Formerly Simon@Emerald)
This is good info. I’m more strummer/singer than anything else, playing occasional lead lines or alternate chord voicings depending on who I am playing with. Lots of barre chords. Not sure how that fits in with this advice...will need to think about that.
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