Adirondack Spruce - I Don't Get It

[mstuartev]

I agree with OP. Bought a Goodall GC with Adi based on recommendation from shop owner. Beautiful axe but stiff sounding. Just never bonded. I was told it needed to break in. How long, I asked? Maybe years, I was told. Wasn't sure I could be patient enough. I traded the Goodall for a Used Sitka Petros.

If I could afford a 30's or 40's Adi Martin I reckon that'd be different.

I bought a CS Gibson J-45 at a local 5-star dealer. The top was red spruce. The salesguy told me all about the top wood and made a great case for it. I played the guitar and liked it, so I bought it. Flash forward about six months and the honeymoon was totally over; in fact, it hadn't really started The guitar just wasn't doing it for me - it wasn't "dead" by any means, but the bass was very tight and the mids seemed a little muted. Where was that Gibson "thump"?

Sometimes we buy things because we think we should. I thought, "Red spruce must be better than sitka, they charge more for it. It's 'Custom Shop' quality!" It didn't pan out that way for me on that particular guitar, but I can't blame Gibson or their retailer for it. I just sold it and moved on, lesson learned.

[mikealpine]

My first reaction was "that's why there are so many varieties of wood available across so many different brands." And I still feel that. I have yet to hear an Englemann topped guitar that really blew me away. I like some, but not as much as other woods. There are back woods I feel the same way about. I like Adi, but feel I don't play hard enough to drive the top, even though I am primarily a strummer. Is it the top, or could it be the bracing that is too heavy for my style of play? There's a lot involved, from playing dynamics to string tension and choice that creates an overall sound profile. I don't think it is fair to judge the species based on this. Did your friend play it before buying? Did he buy a store with a 3-day (or longer) return policy? I know within a very short period of time, half an hour at most, as to whether I like a given guitar. Hopefully, if your friend can't return the guitar, it will open up over time and he'll enjoy it more. Or, he can join the rest of us "addicted folks", sell the Collings and buy something more suitable.

[iknowjohnny]

I had the same thought myself. Granted, i haven't tried a lot of them nor have a given any one a real workout. But from what time i have had picking them off the wall and playing a few minutes here and there i had the same feeling. I never noticed anything special and in fact most or all seemed lacking in overall great tone. I however don't assume Adirondack is therefore not as good to my ear or anyone else's as Sitka, but it DID surprise me after all the good i hear about it. I just figure if i put the time in maybe i'd feel different. But reading the OP it struck a chord with me due to my similar experience.

[brencat]

Personally I think Collings and SCGC do an terrific job with individually voicing their Adi tops...particularly on the OMs and dreads. I own a Collings CW Indian and it is awesome. A very lively guitar. However, if I were primarily a strummer or fingerpicker, I think Sitka is the better choice every time. Again this is only my opinion based on experience.

[JasonA]

A Collings OM-1A I owned was one of my favorite guitars. But I did buy it used, so maybe it was broken in.

Then again, I bought a Martin CEO-7 was brand new, and I think it sounded great! Same with some 000-18GEs. So I guess I'm a fan of adirondack.

[Treenewt]

Here's a case in point from my own experience:

I picked up an Eastman E20OM last year. My first adi guitar. I liked it, but after a while, it just didn't do it for me. Now, i'm not sure if it was because it was an OM, or because it was Adi, but after a while, I just didn't like it. I understood the whole "adi needs to open up" thing, but I also realized I couldn't keep a guitar I didn't really love in the hopes that it would get better. Much wisdom on this forum has said "if you don't love it now, chances are you won't if it opens up."

So I sold it and moved on.

Fast forward to last month: I found an E20D that was spectacular from the first note! Fingerpicked, strummed, flat picked...this guitar "had it." It had all the good of Adi (power, projection, cut) with all the good of Sitka (warm, smooth). I had played several E20D's before, and none of them hit me like this one. Same company, same woods, but very different guitar.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by mstuartev

I agree with OP. Bought a Goodall GC with Adi based on recommendation from shop owner. Beautiful axe but stiff sounding. Just never bonded. I was told it needed to break in. How long, I asked? Maybe years, I was told. Wasn't sure I could be patient enough. I traded the Goodall for a Used Sitka Petros.

If I could afford a 30's or 40's Adi Martin I reckon that'd be different.

I don't follow your logic path to the conclusion you 'reckon'.

Is it the age of the Adi that you think will make a difference?
Or the fact that Martin selected the Adi used?

My experience with my Breedlove Adi top is this:
I loved the sound of my adi top right from the get-go, but I was advised by my dealer to expect even "more better" after regular play.

I felt that it took six months of daily playtime for the sound to settle into a happy place, or to open up, whichever way you want to describe it.
If I don't play the guitar regularly, it takes only about 3 months of neglect for it to tighten back up.

good luck!

[merlin666]

I haven't played and compared many guitars but believe that the factors contributing to sound are manifold and complex and just attributing this to the top material alone is a moot effort. Even with in Adirondacktops in general there would be huge variation ... i.e. has it been aged for decades, quickly kiln dried, torrified, what kind of bracing does it have etc etc.

Considering all these, I have a fairly new jumbo with kiln dried red spruce top and find it really snappy and poppy, even when strings are past their prime. ON the other hand I also have a nearly 40 tear old dreadnought with aged sitka top, which is now very warm and full of overtones sounding. I prefer the pop of the new adi ...

[KarGuitar]

Adirondack seems to have this "hint of aluminum bat" in it. I hear a "clink" like a hear a "thunk" in a J45. There's varying amounts of it in those tops. It's the best way I can describe it. I did love the Eastman E20 00 SS with it. It seemed to "open up" (a process that I only partially embrace) a bit after a few months of playing and some exposure to the outdoor humidity of Florida. GAS got the better of me though, and I sold it to a guy who gigs out with it and loves it.

[Vinyl_Record19]

I don't think you can lump cedar, engelmann, adirondack and german spruce together.

In fact I don't think you can lump cedar and any spruce together.

I wasn't really lumping the aforementioned tone woods into a particular group, I was just saying that they offer different tonal colors and probably should of been considered on the small body Collings.

His guitar uses a short scale and is one of the smallest bodied guitars that Collings offers. What that information, a top that could move more freely with such a small surface area probably would of been the way to go. If this was a dreadnought or jumbo than I can see an Adirondack working in that situation, given a player's playing style utilizes its tonal properties. That was not the case in this situation though.

What irks me about this whole thing is he's missing out on a wonderful experience. You guys should know the one; it's when you get a brand new guitar and are completely enthralled by it's sound. It's inspires you and you find yourself unable to put it down. If I was going to fork over the cash for a Collings, that's what I would want it to sound like. No specific bias or sound in mind, just liking the sound that comes out of the guitar.

I once had a Yamaha GC31 classical guitar. Good price ($1200) for a college student such as myself at the time. The guitar was completely stiff though and that's the complete opposite of what a classical should be. I had people tell me it would open up over time, but it never did after two years of non-stop playing and 30 or so sets of strings. The only way I think that guitar would of opened up would of been to have a luthier completely replace the top or shave down the bracings. I ended up selling the guitar for a measly $600 and I don't miss it.

This is why it bothers me to see a friend go through the same thing. He seems a lot better at convincing himself about things though, so more power to him. It just would of been nice to see him experience a guitar that appealed to him right away.

And about Adirondack itself, I don't doubt there's some good Adi guitars out there. The only way I'd like it though is if a luthier thinned it enough to where it was more responsive or it had a large surface area like a Jumbo or Dreadnought. This 12 string sounds good from the video, but that's only a taste, because I'd have to play it for myself to see if it really sounds the way it does in the video.



On a side note, the same company that makes that 12 string at one point deemed Adirondack was dense enough to use for back and sides.

[kydave]

If I recall, you are more oriented to classical guitars than steel string guitars.

That just might color your interpretation of what his Collings "should" sound like.

But as others have pointed out - Collings knows what they're doing and it is not their place to suggest woods which aren't their forte. I don't think they even offer cedar as a top option, which is not necessarily a mistake.

Adirondack/Red spruce is a tried and true top wood for guitars of all shapes and sizes, so there is nothing inherently odd about its use by Collings in this application, which seems to be your point.

[Vinyl_Record19]

Originally Posted by kydave

If I recall, you are more oriented to classical guitars than steel string guitars.

That just might color your interpretation of what his Collings "should" sound like.

But as others have pointed out - Collings knows what they're doing and it is not their place to suggest woods which aren't their forte. I don't think they even offer cedar as a top option, which is not necessarily a mistake.

Adirondack/Red spruce is a tried and true top wood for guitars of all shapes and sizes, so there is nothing inherently odd about its use by Collings in this application, which seems to be your point.

Funnily enough, my friend ordered this Collings steel string so that it would play and feel very close to a classical guitar. Classical guitars though, don't respond well to dense soundboards (this is why classical luthiers tend to stay away from Sitka Spruce). Since he plays classical, I'm sure he would of liked something on the softer side.

Besides, I've been playing steel strings for as long as I've been playing classical, with a hint of electric guitar thrown into the mix.

[SuperB23]

I think the Collings brand is more at fault here than Adirondack spruce. I've played some really small bodied guitars from other brands with Adi tops that were extremely sensitive and responded to a very light attack with lots of volume. I think of an Adi topped Petros GC that I had. It responded fast and powerfully to a very light touch but yet had tons of volume when you got into it. But a lot of builders who know their stuff will typically sand their adi tops thinner than most other species because you can because of the stiffness to weight ratio. Also if they get really high quality Adi it will be more stiff than some of the younger growth stuff. Most builders with thickness sand Cedar and Redwood much thicker than they do Adi. I'm not sure Collings is one of those builders but I maybe wrong. I've been disenchanted with more than one Collings acoustic over the years!! I'm surprised more people aren't big on Huss and Dalton, Goodall, or Santa Cruz. I know a lot of that is marketing though.

[blacknblues]

Originally Posted by KarGuitar

Adirondack seems to have this "hint of aluminum bat" in it. I hear a "clink" like a hear a "thunk" in a J45.

I've have also heard this characteristic in many adi-topped guitars I've played. I also think its possible that the 'torrefied' versions are meant to soften this without sacrificing volume, thus mimicking an aged adi top.