New bridge pins - to sand or to drill?

[lar]

I've never sized pins at all, but I've made a number of bone saddles.

To fine tune the saddles - i.e., reduce the height just a couple thou - it takes very little sanding since it's so little material to remove. I'm talking about a few seconds of sanding by hand. So, I'm surprised you would need power tools to size these pins down because I always assumed if they would be oversized, then it would only be by a couple thou. Or are they oversized by a lot more than that? How much do you reduce the diameter of these pins?

[Brucebubs]

If your pins are a nice fit in the holes with no strings fitted but stand up all over the place with the strings on then check the length of the slot in the pin - it may be a little short and the end-of-string binding is catching and pulling it up.

Here's my Huss & Dalton when I got it.



I elongated the slot with a rasp attachment on my Dremel. The picture I took here shows a white bone pin.



Here's the result on the pin on the left.



And here's the result on the Huss & Dalton. (I think I can get it even better with a little more work on the next string change)

[guitar4fun]

Originally Posted by lar

How much do you reduce the diameter of these pins?

My digital calipers measured the original pins at 5.07mm just below the collar. The Graphtech pins were 5.16mm. They did fit, but with a portion of the shank exposed above the bridge. It's a personal preference, but I like pins to be seated on their collars. And using the drill just makes it a quicker job and keeps them perfectly round.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

If your pins are a nice fit in the holes with no strings fitted but stand up all over the place with the strings on then check the length of the slot in the pin - it may be a little short and the end-of-string binding is catching and pulling it up.

Here's my Huss & Dalton when I got it.



I elongated the slot with a rasp attachment on my Dremel. The picture I took here shows a white bone pin.



Here's the result on the pin on the left.



And here's the result on the Huss & Dalton. (I think I can get it even better with a little more work on the next string change)

Excellent Job Brucebubs!

I have been doing the very same thing for several years now. Even if your pin seats all the way...sometimes the skirt is still hitting the string and lessening the pathway all the way down to the underside of the bridge. It is a small amount, but effectively this means your string length becomes 1/2 inch longer if it is not hitting the skirt.

I use to use the very same bit for cutting through the skirt. Now I use a Round diamond head. This allows me to cut just the skirt without widening the track. However, there are sometimes advantages to widening the track. It just all depends.

I got to admit...you did one perfect job and yours come out cleaner than mine.

May I ask as to what is your secret to cutting the skirt so even? Just happen to do a bunch of pins today. I always have to apply pressure to the left side other wise the cut goes to the right and looks slightly off center.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Excellent Job Brucebubs!

I have been doing the very same thing for several years now. Even if your pin seats all the way...sometimes the skirt is still hitting the string and lessening the pathway all the way down to the underside of the bridge. It is a small amount, but effectively this means your string length becomes 1/2 inch longer if it is not hitting the skirt.

I use to use the very same bit for cutting through the skirt. Now I use a Round diamond head. This allows me to cut just the skirt without widening the track. However, there are sometimes advantages to widening the track. It just all depends.

I got to admit...you did one perfect job and yours come out cleaner than mine.

May I ask as to what is your secret to cutting the skirt so even? Just happen to do a bunch of pins today. I always have to apply pressure to the left side other wise the cut goes to the right and looks slightly off center.

Ahh. don't be fooled by that neat picture of the 2 white pins - it's a shot I pulled off the interweb that best showed what I was trying to achieve - mine are OK but not quite as neat as that shot - all the other pictures are mine though.
Can you post a picture of the 'round diamond head' you're using? I'd like to see it, thanks.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Ahh. don't be fooled by that neat picture of the 2 white pins - it's a shot I pulled off the interweb that best showed what I was trying to achieve - mine are OK but not quite as neat as that shot - all the other pictures are mine though.
Can you post a picture of the 'round diamond head' you're using? I'd like to see it, thanks.

Here is a picture of the round diamond head I pulled off the internet. You can buy them in kits for around $10 or less. They also come in other sets with straight and round heads in various sizes. You can buy them off Amazon or at your local metal machine shop supplies.
I like them better than straight heads I was using before, in most ways.

The big advantage is I can just cut through the skirt cleaner-rounder than with the straight head. I Insert it right at the skirt. Before I always seemed to wind up increasing the channel size with a straight bit in order to make the top nice and symmetrical. Not that increasing the channel size is a bad thing.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Here is a picture of the round diamond head I pulled off the internet. You can buy them in kits for around $10 or less. They also come in other sets with straight and round heads in various sizes. You can buy them off Amazon or at your local metal machine shop supplies.
I like them better than straight heads I was using before, in most ways.

The big advantage is I can just cut through the skirt cleaner-rounder than with the straight head. I Insert it right at the skirt. Before I always seemed to wind up increasing the channel size with a straight bit in order to make the top nice and symmetrical. Not that increasing the channel size is a bad thing.

Fantastic, thanks for that.
I remember seeing them when I bought the bit I'm using in my picture.
I'm going to order a set, thanks again.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Fantastic, thanks for that.
I remember seeing them when I bought the bit I'm using in my picture.
I'm going to order a set, thanks again.

Forgot to mention that it may take a little bit longer to make the same cut with a round head as compared to a straight bit.. Not loads of time difference...but the ball head goes a little bit slower. The Ball head is also cleaner for smoothing the transition between where you cut through the skirt and the channel itself.

You can smooth that transition between the channel and the new cut. The only problem I have is that the cut tends to want to go to the right slightly(as the dremel is turning to the right) Thus I have to concentrate and use pressure to my left side in order to get an even cut in line with the channel. I hold the bridge pin upside down on a rubber mat when using the dremel.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by RCW

…if I sand down the pins too much, it's relatively cheap to buy another set of pins and try again.

Hi RCW

You nailed it. Over sand the pin, and it's a cheap fix. Over drill the hole, and it's a more permanent mistake.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Over sand the pin, and it's a cheap fix. Over drill the hole, and it's a more permanent mistake.

An oversize pin hole is easily repaired. There are a number of ways to do it. One way is to line the interior of the hole with a small amount of CA glue. After drying, ream with appropriate tapered reamer. Takes less than 10 minutes, but does require a reamer.

There are pencil-sharpener-like pin shavers to make the pins smaller, rather than sanding. They will produce a uniform size and taper with straight-tapered sides. They are relatively expensive and aren't warranted unless one does a lot of pin re-sizing.

Generally, it is better to make the pin holes a standard size so that they fit standard sized pins. That said, a good set of pins should last a lifetime and, once fit, will likely never need replacement.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

An oversize pin hole is easily repaired. There are a number of ways to do it. One way is to line the interior of the hole with a small amount of CA glue. After drying, ream with appropriate tapered reamer. Takes less than 10 minutes, but does require a reamer.

I've been holding off posting a similar comment until someone came along who is actually an expert in luthiery, because of the almost unanimous preference by posters here for trying to make pins fit holes, rather than the (IMHO) better practice of adjusting the hole to fit the pin. Back in my engineering-apprentice days in the mid-'60s, we always reamed holes to fit a shaft, we didn't try to make the shaft fit the hole because it's more difficult and time-consuming to do it that way.

I've sanded pins, and I've reamed pin-holes. Provided you go slow and careful, reaming is easier and quicker than sanding, and results in a better match of pin to hole in terms of circularity and taper. And provided you go slow and careful, and check the fit frequently, there's no reason you should make a hole too big.

But it's a case of 'To each, his own', I guess.

Originally Posted by Charles Tauber

Generally, it is better to make the pin holes a standard size so that they fit standard sized pins. That said, a good set of pins should last a lifetime and, once fit, will likely never need replacement.

Yep, absolutely agree.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

I've been holding off posting a similar comment until someone came along who is actually an expert in luthiery, because of the almost unanimous preference by posters here for trying to make pins fit holes, rather than the (IMHO) better practice of adjusting the hole to fit the pin.

The only reason I posted was to counter the claim that if the holes are over-enlarged, they are permanently so.

After many discussions on this topic, it appears to be much like the common advice to adjust the truss rod no more than - pick your favourite amount - 1/8 turn, leaving it for a day and then repeating, if necessary. It is a safer process for the novice, less likely to cause serious problems, and doesn't require specialized tooling.

[Triumph1050]

This is a no-brainer... don't affect or modify your guitar and bridge over inexpensive pins. it's not about just buying better pins as was mentioned. Bob Colosi's bone pins are top-of-the-line and they come with the expectation you may have to do some minor sanding down for a perfect fit.
but thanks for the question...because several responses have shown some good tricks on how to do it.

[Paddy1951]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The only reason I posted was to counter the claim that if the holes are over-enlarged, they are permanently so.



After many discussions on this topic, it appears to be much like the common advice to adjust the truss rod no more than - pick your favourite amount - 1/8 turn, leaving it for a day and then repeating, if necessary. It is a safer process for the novice, less likely to cause serious problems, and doesn't require specialized tooling.

While there is certainly more than one way(s) to skin a cat, not everybody is handy, skilled, or has experience.

Lutherie tools are often necessary. They are specialized and expensive.

So, for many, better to take conservative approaches. And do them a little at a time.

For those of you that have the skills and tools, I envy you.

[JayBee1404]

Paddy, I agree about the tools - I invested in a 5-degree reamer, some would say expensive, but I'm pretty sure the cost was no more than a cigarette-smoker would spend on a week's smokes so, as a non-smoker (and non-drinker too), not really 'expensive' at all.

My experience is that reaming is actually far simpler than sanding - with a good reamer it's just a matter of (1) a 1/4-turn with little or no downward pressure, (2) check the pin in the hole, repeat those two steps if/as necessary. You're only removing a thou or two, so only a very few 1/4-turns are usually necessary. And, by using a reamer in the hole, you keep everything nicely circular and put a taper matching the pin in at least the top part of the hole, so there's less chance of the 'wobbly-pin-syndrome'.

And with regard to skills, the only way you become 'handy, skilled and experienced' at a job is by doing it - skills are learned through practice, they don't come by 'magic'. I've wrecked several pins by faffing around sanding them (not to mention wrecking my fingers!) but I've never actually damaged a bridge by reaming the holes or, for that matter, by slotting the bridgepin holes for solid pins. And I'm a retired corporate accountant, not a luthier.

But, as I said in my previous post, it's a case of 'To each his own' - I'm not by any means trying to tell the pin-sanders they're wrong, I'm simply saying there's more than one way to do the job and that, whilst reaming the pin-holes sounds like the 'extreme and dangerous' option, it's actually easier, and IMHO produces a better result than, sanding the pins. It seems counter-intuitive, but that's my experience FWIW.

So, do whatever is comfortable, but remember that, as in most things, the thing you should most fear is fear itself.

And, once again...IMHO and YMMV.