Help with locking tuners

[jed1894]

My son has a les Paul studio with the old brass nut. I have the replacement nut but have not installed yet. The guitar is fairly new. Anyway, I removed the robotuners and put on Hipshot locking tuners. Now, the guitar goes out of tune when he bends a string. It at least it pretty much stayed in tune with the robo tuners.

Any ideas? Doesn’t seem like this would be a nut issue? Strings are about month 2 weeks old now and should be done stretching. Suggestions before I buy another set of tuners? Does locking tuners not match up well with les Pauls????

Thanks JED

[Dru Edwards]

If all the strings go out of tune I'm thinking that perhaps the new tuners weren't installed correctly. It shouldn't be related to the nut since it worked fine with the robot tuners.

Any chance that something wasn't screwed in tight enough on the tuners? Did you need to drill new screw holes to make sure the tuners don't move?

[YamahaGuy]

I've never used locking tuners, but am familiar with how they work. I have two questions. 1) have the strings been stretched after the initial installation? You mentioned they have been on the guitar awhile, but strings can stretch for a while. 2) are the screws for the locking mechanism right? Vibrations from the sustain of the guitar will likely cause them to loosen.

[jed1894]

Thanks guys. Correction of couple things:
Strings are about 2 weeks old and been played about 5-6 times.
No, they were not stretched
I installed per factory directions
Only bottom 3 strings seem to go out of tune
I will check screws again but I tightened them down pretty good when I did string change.
I have 10s on it now. Came from 9s


Maybe just not stretched enough. He bends the bottom high strings (1,2,3) the most which is why, I guess they are the problem. Thanks again.

[Bob Womack]

If you moved up from .009s to .010s, the nut widths could be too tight. The result would be tension behind the nut that would be let out incrementally as you bend.

Bob

[nolegsfngrpickn]

Originally Posted by jed1894

No, they were not stretched

Case closed

[FrankHudson]

I recall a long thread here with contributions by Fazool who states that metal strings do not stretch. When we "stretch strings" what we are doing is taking up the slack between the nut and the tuning machine, between the saddle and tailpiece, and on the windings around the tuner shaft. That last element is usually the most significant.

When locking tuners are used there should be almost no string wraps around the tuner shaft. That's the whole genius of them. You should insert the string in the hole, pull it taunt, and then clamp it down with the locking mechanism, and finally tune up. I don't usually try to pull it to near normal string tension on my locking tuner guitars before locking, but I generally aim for no sag in the string and I end up with something less than one full wrap on the tuner shaft. Did you do this?

I still "stretch my strings" on a locking tuner guitar after install, but it's much less fiddly (and easier to change strings too). I still need to tune up my guitar before playing because the wood will move a little.

I'm trying to remember the robotuner setup on these. Was it a zero fret deal? Brass nuts themselves can be sticky, and hangups between the nut and the tuner shaft can occur on typical Les Paul and the like headstocks.

[bnjp]

I really like locking tuners but hate robotuners. Have you read instructions for your particular tuners? They'll have some sort of locking mechanism and maybe they aren't locked and slipping?

With locking tuners with the thumb screw on the back of the tuner, I pull the string through somewhat taut. then lock the tuner, wind string ( you want about a half turn on the post), Tune to pitch, stretch, then tune again. There are other types of tuners that lock from the top, some that lock as you tune, some that even lock and cut the string as you tune. They all work and won't cause the guitar to go out of tune if they are used as designed.

[jed1894]

Thanks guys. I’m checking what y’all suggested. They were not stretched. So, should I stretch them or let them be at this point since he’s playing the heck out of it now?

The locking tuner button is good and tight.

9s were on it but I had 10s on it when I bought it so going back with 10s now.

Should have stretched I guess.

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

If you moved up from .009s to .010s, the nut widths could be too tight. The result would be tension behind the nut that would be let out incrementally as you bend.

Bob

What Bob said!

Gibsons are notorious for tuning issues which I discovered when I got my 335 last year. It is highly unlikely to be the tuners - locking tuners make string changes easier but probably won’t help tuning issues.

The excessive break angle over the nut on Gibsons means the strings (especially A to B strings) can get stuck even if the slots are supposedly the right size. Having the nut slots seen to is essential but I’ve since learned a couple of other tricks too:

One is to lubricate the slots when changing strings with nut sauce or something similar (I’ve done this, works wonders).

The other is to properly stretch the strings, not only when tuning up new strings but whenever you tune the guitar: let’s say you tune up a slack string and it sounds (or registers on an electronic tuner) as spot on. Press down or pull on the string and check again - you may well find it’s flat again. It’s because although the vibrating part of the string was in tune the section above the nut is even tighter because of binding in the nut slot; by pulling or pushing on the string it releases the string so it has more or less even tension above and below the nut.

Since I learned these two tricks I rarely if ever have problems.

[jed1894]

Wanted to follow up with fix:

I switched out the stock metal nut with a brass one sent by Gibson and it fixed the problem. So it appears the nut was affecting the tuning somehow. All good now. Thanks again guys

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by jed1894

Wanted to follow up with fix:

I switched out the stock metal nut with a brass one sent by Gibson and it fixed the problem. So it appears the nut was affecting the tuning somehow. All good now. Thanks again guys

Thanks for the update.

Can you confirm that when you put the strings on the locking tuners that you didn't wrap them around the post?

[jed1894]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

Thanks for the update.

Can you confirm that when you put the strings on the locking tuners that you didn't wrap them around the post?

If I understand your question correctly——

I did not wrap them. I put them in hole which was straight inline with fret board and pulled them through as tight as possible and then locked them with adjusting screw. When tuned up, the tuners turned about 1/4 turn and they were in tune.

One other thing I did do was tighten the locking screw a little tighter than before. Not so sure there wasn’t a little slippage before. Either the new nut or tighter screws fixed it.

Jed

[Revy]

Make sure your heavier strings slide easy in the nut grooves. After checking give them a little graphite in the slot from a regular pencil or this (https://store.bigbends.com/Nut-Sauce_p_12.html) to lubricate. Stretch the heck out of the strings. You'll be good to go! Rock on!

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by jed1894

If I understand your question correctly——

I did not wrap them. I put them in hole which was straight inline with fret board and pulled them through as tight as possible and then locked them with adjusting screw. When tuned up, the tuners turned about 1/4 turn and they were in tune.

One other thing I did do was tighten the locking screw a little tighter than before. Not so sure there wasn’t a little slippage before. Either the new nut or tighter screws fixed it.

Jed

Yep, you understood my question. One thing. You need to loosen the clamp (lock), pull the string straight through, tighten clamp (lock), then tune. Should only be 1/4 wrap or so.

Glad to hear you found a solution.