Crossing the thumbpick over index or even middle fingerpick

[Mirek Patek]

Coming from the four-string instrument (tenor banjo or tenor guitar, tuned to DGdg) played by thumbpick, index and middle fingerpick, I would like to ask bigger guitar players' community the following question: Could you point me to some fingerpicking players who cross their thumbpick over the index or even middle fingerpicks in some cases - e.g. when there is the need for playing the second or even first string by the thumbpick during the three-finger roll patterns? I found this "thumb-lead" way more natural for me rather than switching to "index-lead" or "middle-lead". At first trial the finger crossing looks awkward, but with some practice it can be done.

Below is the copy of my post I wrote in the banjo forum http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/241661/1 (I see that the red color for thumb melody notes and blue color for transitional notes are lost by copy-paste and I will not put them letter by letter in again - for better colored version please look at the link and go to the last post at that page).

Thanks for your replies.
Mirek
http://www.mirekpatek.com/

---------------------------------------------------

Here is another bunch of practice routines that includes the 1st-string-lead rolls. All rolls keep the syncopation of the melody as in standard forward roll (3+3+2) and the sound of forward roll is sought after - that's why the 2nd-string-lead rolls are technically backward (TMI) but sonically forward ones. Melody is played by thumb (marked by red). Last notes of the roll (marked by blue) differ depending on the location of the melody in the next measure. First there are shown the two (or three in case of 1st-string-lead) options for each string-lead, then these options are used during the switches of the melody between the strings as shown in the last three rows.

3rd-string-lead, TIM forward roll

g|----M-----M----|----M-----M----|-
d|--I-----I-----I|--I-----I-----I|-
G|T-----T-----T--|T-----T-----T--|-
D|---------------|---------------|-

or

g|----M-----M---M|----M-----M---M|-
d|--I-----I------|--I-----I------|-
G|T-----T-----T--|T-----T-----T--|-
D|---------------|---------------|-


2nd-string-lead, TMI backward roll motion (sounds like forward roll)

g|--M-----M------|--M-----M------|-
d|T-----T-----T--|T-----T-----T--|-
G|----I-----I---I|----I-----I---I|-
D|---------------|---------------|-

or

g|--M-----M-----M|--M-----M-----M|-
d|T-----T-----T--|T-----T-----T--|-
G|----I-----I----|----I-----I----|-
D|---------------|---------------|-


1st-string-lead, TIM forward roll

g|T-----T-----T--|T-----T-----T--|-
d|----M-----M----|----M-----M----|-
G|--I-----I-----I|--I-----I-----I|-
D|---------------|---------------|-

or

g|T-----T-----T--|T-----T-----T--|-
d|----M-----M---M|----M-----M---M|-
G|--I-----I------|--I-----I------|-
D|---------------|---------------|-

or

g|T-----T-----T--|T-----T-----T--|-
d|----M-----M---I|----M-----M---I|-
G|--I-----I------|--I-----I------|-
D|---------------|---------------|-


Switch between 3rd-string-lead and 2nd-string-lead via M on 1st string

g|----M-----M---M|--M-----M-----M|----M-----M---M|--M-----M-----M|-
d|--I-----I------|T-----T-----T--|--I-----I------|T-----T-----T--|-etc.
G|T-----T-----T--|----I-----I----|T-----T-----T--|----I-----I----|-
D|---------------|---------------|---------------|---------------|-


Switch between 2nd-string-lead and 1st-string-lead via I on 3rd string

g|--M-----M------|T-----T-----T--|--M-----M------|T-----T-----T--|-
d|T-----T-----T--|----M-----M----|T-----T-----T--|----M-----M----|-etc.
G|----I-----I---I|--I-----I-----I|----I-----I---I|--I-----I-----I|-
D|---------------|---------------|---------------|---------------|-


Jump between 3rd-string-lead and 1st-string-lead via I on 2nd string

g|----M-----M----|T-----T-----T--|----M-----M----|T-----T-----T--|-
d|--I-----I-----I|----M-----M---I|--I-----I-----I|----M-----M---I|-etc.
G|T-----T-----T--|--I-----I------|T-----T-----T--|--I-----I------|-
D|---------------|---------------|---------------|---------------|-

[geordie]

hi Mierk,
I don't use conventional picking patterns, they work to an extent - for some musics and are good as a starting point but once you develop independent finger control - ie. get your fingers to do what YOU want them to, you are free to develop techniques of your own, to express YOUR music and go beyond mimicking others.
Heres a picking style I developed to play a certain type of music / rhythm with thumb crossing over all fingers.

https://www.box.com/s/4lxl7ypy2jgc4pacjtuh

As an example, take the 'classic' golf swing - it is continually evolving and changing depending on the fashions and fads of the day so a youngster taking up golf may be tutored in theTiger Woods style but I believe Tiger has changed his swing something like four times in his career - because he can and it works for him.
Have a look at other plucked string techniques such as Flamenco and Harp

"You must be prepared to do what the music requires of you - not what you require of it." PM George Moss

[Craigo]

A notable example of the type of picking you describe was Rev. Gary Davis. He regularly crossed his thumb over his index finger when picking, especially lead runs. Since he only played using his thumb and index, however, he didn't cross over his middle finger.

As Stefan Grossman, an avid student of the Reverend, has described, part of Davis' unique sound comes from this "crossing-over" technique, in that it allowed for greater emphasis/attack on some of the thumb-struck notes.

[Mirek Patek]

Geordie and Craig, thanks for your replies.

Here is what I wrote in the other forum where I posted my question (the one at Acoustic Fingerstyle Guitar - I hope it's OK to reference it here).
---------------------------
I transfer 5-string banjo picking rolls to my [tenor] guitar. Of course many guitar players do it too - my question is whether somebody crosses his thumb over the other picking fingers when there is the need to pick the melody on the thinnest strings.

A) Of course one option would be to go up the neck on the third (G) string with the melody and to keep the 2nd and 1st string reserved for index and middle accompaniment.
B) Other option would be to pick the melody with another finger than thumb (e.g. index on the 2nd string, or middle on the 1st string).
C) I am talking about another option when one insist on picking the melody by thumb (on 2nd or even 1st string) and therefore crosses it over the rolling index or even middle fingers.

As far as I know, nobody does this in the three-finger-picking banjo world (they prefer the options A or B), but I assume that in the bigger guitar world there must be somebody going that C path - that's why I am asking here.

In the two-finger (thumb+index) picking banjo world the thumb-over-index crossing happens frequently.
---------------------------

Craig, you have mentioned Rev. Gary Davis and his crossing of the thumb over the index finger, especially in the lead runs. I think that when using thumb and index finger in the single note lead runs (rhytmically like downstroke and upstroke of the flatpick), the thumb obviously must cross sometimes the index finger. Or am I missing something not so obvious that has been specific for Rev. Gary Davis?

E.g. crossing the thumb over index in the pinches, so the thumb picks the thinner string and index finger picks the thicker string? This way the melody note on the thinner string would be more pronounced.

[jpbat]

I constantly cross the thumb over the strings played by the fingers (typically D-G-B-E)

I use a bass/brush/bass/brush pattern with the thumb (on each beat in 4/4, waltz is another story), so the thumb will sometimes play whatever melody note happens on the beat, often in fast tempo tunes.
This is not a hard rule, melody notes are played with the fingers too, but since the pinch movement between thumb and finger is much harder to achieve as the thumb goes brush on several string (as opposed to pluck only one bass string), I developed the technic of crossing the thumb over the melody strings on highly rhythmic tunes.
I will often play triplets in a finger/thumb/finger pattern, i.e.

Since I use a constant rhythm pattern, on each beat, with the thumb, *any* melody note appearing on the second and fourth beat (at the same time as the brush), is problematic, so I have 3 solutions : I cheat and don't play the brush but only one bass string, I play the brush and the melody note, but this is difficult, so only on slow tempo tunes, or I cross pick with the thumb which then play a brush containing the melody note. In that case I generally end the brush on that melody note to highlight it inside the brush. A bit delicate, but if the groove is going, works fine.

Edit: thinking of it, maybe this comes from my clawhammer banjo playing 40 years ago. But I didn't touch my banjo since then, and came back to guitar 6 or 7 years ago. But who knows...

[ocarolan]

I do it frequently, though not in the sort of repetitive patterns the OP talks about. I'll use it if the music sounds better that way in my own compositions and arrangements.

Keith