What's the real story about the fretting hand thumb?

[TBman]

On the neck, off the neck? Should I practice not using the thumb? Could gripping the neck using the thumb be a big source of string squeak?

Is this something that I work with? -> https://douglasniedt.com/lefthandthumb.html

Thanks.

[charles Tauber]

The source of string squeak is sliding your fingers along the surface of the strings. It isn't related to the use of the thumb.

"Good technique" is used to reduce string noise. That involves lifting the fingers off the strings while moving the hand from one position to another.

People have tried "mechanical" means of reducing string noise, such as coated strings, strings with less texture and applying lubricants to the strings. In the end, however, good technique goes a long way. There is no quick or easy way to obtain good technique but to put in the work to achieve it. That work isn't something that everyone is willing to put in.


The suggestion that the thumb is "passive" is not very accurate and open to interpretation as to its meaning. The goal is to have the entire body as relaxed as possible, including the hands. As the Niedt suggests, the amount of pressure used on the back of the neck varies depending on what the fingers are doing: the opposite of "passive".

The thumb’s participation ranges from zero pressure when it is lifted entirely off the neck for some shifts, some types of vibrato, and difficult stretches, to firm pressure in infrequent instances to help play extremely difficult bar chords.

At no point should one have a "death grip" with the thumb and fingers. Many players play with far more force in their fretting hands than necessary. Playing without the thumb contacting the back of the neck is one possible way to train someone to use less force, but one shouldn't allow one to become distracted away from the goal of using minimal effort.

Niedt goes on to suggest that one should use gravity to fret:

Use the force of gravity to minimize any effort the hand and thumb must make to hold down the strings. Rather than squeezing firmly between the thumb and fingers, use the weight of the left arm and hand to allow the fingers to “sink into the strings”. Instead of squeezing the strings between the thumb and fingers with brute force, hang on the strings to press them down. One teacher uses the image of a clothes hanger for the fingers on the fingerboard. The fingers do not press. Let the fingers’ weight hang there like a clothes hanger.

Gravity acts down, towards the centre of the Earth. Unless one holds the guitar so the fingerboard is horizontal, gravity cannot be used in place of the fingers and thumb applying force to the strings. Suggesting "gravity" will fret the strings is misleading. Again, the goal is to be as relaxed as possible. That means relax the shoulder, relax the elbow, rather than lift them. Doing so is allowing them to hang, to not resist gravity. It is a recipe for being more relaxed. Focus on being relaxed. Focus on where you hold excess tension while playing: that can be your neck, your shoulders, elbows, wrists... Playing well, in the context of classical guitar, is to be aware of what you are doing, which includes where you are exerting excess tensions that hinder your playing. Good postural alignment goes a long way towards minimizing excess tension. This is a common theme in a variety of physical arts, not just guitar playing.

There are many methods for becoming more aware of what you are doing. One of them is through imagery, such as imagining that gravity is doing something. As long as one understands that it is imagery, and not a literal description of what is occurring, it can be a useful method. Unfortunately, many get lost in the imagery and forget what the intended goal of the imagery was.


The thumb positions he shows are fine, but I think the language and teaching method, with its imagery, is too easily misunderstood to be good, explicit instruction. There is too much room for interpreting it incorrectly and going down an irrelevant rabbit hole.

[rick-slo]

Disagree with a fair amount of what Niedt says. For example, gravity has nothing to do with fretting pressure on strings.

Keep the thumb on the neck. Just keep it in the right position and with just the right amount of fret pressure to do what is needed at the moment.

As far as squeaks so much depends on the texture and moisture level of your fingertips. Compared to that I don't find much difference arising from
how hard or quickly I do some string slide. If you are about to record something you could soak your fingers some prior - won't last long but if you
get the recording done quickly it might help. Though I don't use them there are products like Fingerease out there.

[TBman]

Ok thanks.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Gravity acts down, towards the centre of the Earth. Unless one holds the guitar so the fingerboard is horizontal, gravity cannot be used in place of the fingers and thumb applying force to the strings. Suggesting "gravity" will fret the strings is misleading.

I agree with much of what you wrote, but I strongly disagree with your dismissal of gravity as a contributing factor in applying proper pressure to the strings. The use of gravity is not "misleading," but is rather an often-cited component of classical guitar playing posture. As the concept is most commonly applied, the player is seated with the guitar positioned such that the backside of the upper bout of the instrument rests against the player's chest. (This is one of the three primary points of contact between the body of the instrument and the player). By this positioning, the plane of the soundboard / fretboard of the guitar is turned slightly upward. It is this slight upward-tilted orientation which allows a downward-pulling (gravity) vector of force to contribute to string pressure.

This is much easier to convey visually than with words, but many classical guitar method books discuss this very matter, often with an accompanying photo or diagram which makes the concept much easier to convey. Gravity being employed to facilitate fretboard pressure is most certainly a *real* element of classical guitar technique.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

...As the concept is most commonly applied, the player is seated with the guitar positioned such that the backside of the upper bout of the instrument rests against the player's chest. (This is one of the three primary points of contact between the body of the instrument and the player). By this positioning, the plane of the soundboard / fretboard of the guitar is turned slightly upward. It is this slight upward-tilted orientation which allows a downward-pulling (gravity) vector of force to contribute to string pressure....

...but many classical guitar method books discuss this very matter, often with an accompanying photo or diagram which makes the concept much easier to convey. Gravity being employed to facilitate fretboard pressure is most certainly a *real* element of classical guitar technique.

This is a really easy discussion to have: I'm a mechanical engineer.

Draw yourself a free body diagram. Gravity acts straight down. The force due to gravity is that of the weight of your arm "hanging" from the guitar neck as a "dead weight": the force of gravity acts straight down, vertical.

The neck is tilted to a slight angle towards the performer. That vertical gravitational force can be broken into two (vector) components. One component acts perpendicular to the strings and assists in depressing the strings against the frets: this component is equal to W x sin(a), where W is the weight of your arm, a is the angle of the fingerboard from vertical. (The other component stretches the strings sideways, in the direction of the width of the fretboard.)

With the fingerboard vertical (a=0) the perpendicular component is zero. At a tilt of 90 degrees (a=90), fully horizontal, like a lap guitar, the component = W, the full weight of your arm.

At 1 degree of tilt (a=1), the perpendicular component is .0175W. If the weight of your arm is, say, 10 lb, the perpendicular component is .18 lb.

At a 5 degree tilt (a=5), the perpendicular component is .0872W, .87 lb, for a 10 lb arm.

At a 10 degree tilt (a=10), the perpendicular component is .1736W, 1.74 lb, for a 10 lb arm.

Those are total applied forces. If one applies that to more than one string, the force per string will be divided by the number of strings to which the total force is applied. For example, to depress all six strings (e.g. barre), the force per string will be 1/6th of the values above.


I'll leave it to the reader to decide how heavy his or her arm is, at what angle of tilt he or she plays and how significant the gravity/weight component is to depressing strings against the frets.


Prior to Galileo, most people agreed that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. Just because many people believe something doesn't make it true, such as in the "many classical guitar books" you mention.

The above discussion applies only in so much as a player is sufficiently relaxed that his or her arm hangs as "dead weight". If one holds excess tension in the shoulder, elbow, arm... that exceeds and counters the force of gravity, the above is irrelevant. Many, many players play with too much tension so that gravity isn't relevant. This level of subtlety isn't really relevant to a beginning player, such as the OP who asked about this.

The above discussion also makes a number of assumptions regarding the hand, the arm and how they relate to the strings and the depressing thereof. In actual fact, if you simply hung a 10lb weight on a stretched string, the string will simply be pulled vertically downward: there is no perpendicular-to-fretboard component. If the fretboard was horizontal, the strings would be pressed towards the fretboard. If the fretboard is vertical, the strings would simply be stretched sideways, not towards the fretboard. If the fretboard is titled at some angle in between, the effect is to stretch the strings sideways relative to the fretboard in proportion to the tilt: the greater the tilt, the greater the sideways stretch.

[Gitfiddlemann]

You know what all this means Barry. Sorry to remind you again, but:

Whether you like it or not, you can't escape having to learn about gravity and, by extension, general relativity.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by AndreF

You know what all this means Barry. Sorry to remind you again, but:

Whether you like it or not, you can't escape having to learn about gravity and, by extension, general relativity.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Just because many people believe something doesn't make it true, such as in the "many classical guitar books" you mention.

I completely agree. Take yourself, for example...you seem very convinced of the validity of your take on the matter. I feel exactly the same regarding my position, and I am also familiar with force vectors. I don't sense that you and I are going to have any meaningful sharing of ideas here.

But since I mentioned literature references in my previous post, I am simply going to offer up a couple of excerpts for the benefit of the OP and anyone else who may stumble upon this thread. These are from books which I actually own and have read; I am sure there are other instructional references out there if one were to dig.

(On the subject of barre chords): "One of the reason why you do not have to squeeze hard to play most of the notes is that you can use the force of gravity to save you a tremendous amount of left hand energy.”
- Lee F. Ryan, The Natural Classical Guitar, p. 72

"First, analyze your barre. Are you allowing the weight of your arm and
gravity to assist you? Look at the picture on the right (guitar tilted
slightly upwards) and see how the weight should be channeled."
- Scott Tennent, Pumping Nylon, p. 22

"Make sure to sit with the guitar tilted slightly backward. In this
position, you have the advantage of gravity with the weight of the left arm
to help the bar."
- Christopher Parkening, The Christopher Parkening Guitar Method, Volume 1, p. 74

[rick-slo]

Fairly typical position of upper arm. Weight of upper arm is held by shoulder. Consider that arm position and the lever angle between the upper
arm and forearm at the elbow. Remove all muscle contraction in the arm and the forearm falls forward away from the frets. If anything at all
significant this will reduce pressure on the frets. Also as already pointed out the other vectors.

Apply fretting force with the thumb (most accurate and quickest to vary force) and if desired (say for example when holding a prolonged barre
chord) by pulling the shoulder muscles back.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

example...you seem very convinced of the validity of your take on the matter... and I am also familiar with force vectors. I don't sense that you and I are going to have any meaningful sharing of ideas here.

On the contrary. Since you are also familiar with vectors, I'd be quite happy to have you point out the errors in my simple analysis.

But since I mentioned literature references in my previous post, I am simply going to offer up a couple of excerpts for the benefit of the OP and anyone else who may stumble upon this thread.

I understand that these references are for the benefit of others, but how about finding the flaws in what I have stated rather than just quoting others who have stated the same as you are, a fallacy of logic known as "appeal to authority". The people you have quoted are great players and their opinions should have weight - pun intended - but that doesn't necessarily make all of what they say true.

".. you can use the force of gravity...”
- Lee F. Ryan, The Natural Classical Guitar, p. 72

"Are you allowing the weight of your arm and gravity to assist you?..."see how the weight should be channeled."
- Scott Tennent, Pumping Nylon, p. 22

"Make sure to sit with the guitar tilted slightly backward. In this position, you have the advantage of gravity with the weight of the left arm
to help the bar."
- Christopher Parkening, The Christopher Parkening Guitar Method, Volume 1, p. 74

Let's assume that one does/can "use the force of gravity", use "gravity to assist you" and "have the advantage of gravity", that those are true statements. What does that mean, practically? What is the player supposed to do to make that possible, to tap into and apply - or, as Parkening said, "channel" - that force of gravity? Is all the player have to do is tilt the guitar back as Parkening states? Does it take noticeably more exertion to play if the guitar is tilted less, or not at all? Is a guitar more difficult to play in space, where gravity is reduced?

If you want to have a meaningful discussion about the specifics of gravity on fretting, go for it. But, a meaningful discussion, from my perspective, is more than simply quoting what others have said as dogma. I'm happy to hear any substantiating argument to support your perspective.


To me, it is very clear that admonitions about gravity have as their prerequisite the ability to relax, to eliminate unnecessary exertion and tensions. (Most guitar players play with a lot of excess tensions in various parts of their bodies, some of which is due to poor posture/ergonomics and less than ideal physical alignments.)

If using imagery regarding gravity gets one to relax, I see no problem in using that imagery. The math suggests that gravity is a pretty small contributor to the forces involved in fretting strings. The imagery of gravity might have a greater contribution, provided one doesn't use it to go down some strange, distracting rabbit hole.

[TBman]

It does seem to be the same as the general rule of "thumb" not to choke the neck, to ease up and play lightly.

I was also thinking that using too much pressure holding the neck (from too much pressure with the thumb) attributes to increased string squeak because when moving from location to location on the neck, the pressure isn't released enough and causes finger drag. Less pressure, less drag maybe. I'll experiment. Old habits are hard to break.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by TBman

It does seem to be the same as the general rule of "thumb" not to choke the neck, to ease up and play lightly.

I was also thinking that using too much pressure holding the neck (from too much pressure with the thumb) attributes to increased string squeak because when moving from
location to location on the neck, the pressure isn't released enough and causes finger drag. Less pressure, less drag maybe. I'll experiment. Old habits are hard to break.

Thing about hand digit control compared to arm and shoulder control is that it reacts with much more precision and speed. Also less or more pressure on the frets during slides
does not by itself change the degree of squeaks. Try sliding your middle finger on the 6th string back and forth from the 2nd to 7th fret with different amounts of pressure. In fact
you could say more pressure is better in a way as in typical playing you will end up with more volume on the destination note of the slide.

[Carey]

Another POV: I *think* that gravity can provide a slight LH assist, especially
with barring; but when you do that you're also in fact bending the guitar,
because no counterforce is being applied by the thumb. This can, and does,
in my experience, negatively affect the sound: the strings are being stretched further. So I try not to do it, and do provide counterpressure with the thumb.

I've seen better players than me make it work, though, or seem to.

[lar]

The other technique discussed by Niedt is pulling back with both arms. This technique works on slow passages where you hold the (bar) chord for a long time but I can't see it working on quicker passages (i.e., most songs). Moving between many chords quickly while constantly pulling and releasing both arms between chords is silly. Big muscles don't act that quickly. So this technique works but has limited application.

Also, pulling back on the neck will bend the neck, sharpening all the notes (try it), and it also dampens (mutes) the top. One of the perceived benefits of arm rests is that your arm doesn't touch the top, and with this technique your grabbing and pulling on it. Granted the 'pull' force is small - but I still can't imagine Segovia (Mr. Perfection) approving that technique (I don't know if he did or didn't).