One last time on Clarity

[TBman]

Ok, I'm going to wrap it up with the demos now. I just wanted to show what the mic placement recommended by Doug Young sounds like - the mics are 20" apart and about 10 inches from the guitar. I didn't use the Ozone Imager to adjust the stereo field.

This is El McMeen playing:



And this is my first demo in the new room with the mics wide apart (about 10" outside of my shoulders) and back about 24" from the guitar, with the mics angled towards the guitar which was in my "Clarity II" thread.

Me:




Me again - today's recording with closer mic placement:


And this is a good place to be for now I think. Now I'll go back to working on playing cleanly
.
.
.
.
.
.

[Wrighty]

Much better (both) IMO. I prefer the first one (diff room demo) as I prefer less of your room. Good work!

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Much better (both) IMO. I prefer the first one (diff room demo) as I prefer less of your room. Good work!

Thanks Wrighty!

[EZYPIKINS]

Both are clean but I agree with #1 seems a little more full bodied.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by EZYPIKINS

Both are clean but I agree with #1 seems a little more full bodied.

My first clip or clip 1B?

[alohachris]

Aloha Barry,

FWIW, overall, much better clarity on the last clip than previous ones. Nice playing! Still, some easily fixed issues.

Opinions:

1) Excessive Reverb - the piece you shared is slow & intimate & that draws the listener closer to it. The amount of reverb on that last clip works against that dynamic. Sure, reverb can hide some of the room issues you have, but in this case, it's working against the music. Try to bring the melody forward in the mix to accentuate its intimacy & reduce the reverb. Maybe even try achieving clarity w/o any EFX at first.

2) EQ the lower mid's, eliminate distortion notes. Many bass & lower mid notes on all the clips here are distorted - very distracting. I listened to them on computer speakers, some very good monitors & some really great larger audiophile speakers & they all clipped out on those notes on your last piece. Why do you think that is, Barry?

Is it the room? Can you hear the distortion, Barry? Try to use light amounts of targeted EQ or even compression to even out the levels & again, bring the melody forward in the mix. Get rid of those low frequency distortions. I also think you need to learn how to bring your recordings up to final CD levels (check out Doug Young's recording video's.)

Overall, your recordings are getting much better. Copy Doug Young's suggestions & you can't go wrong in achieving clarity - especially once you treat your space. If you want tips re: how to use reverbs, go to the second DY recording video I sent you. He shows you how to combine a room with a hall reverb that ends up being barely audible - but it's a much better level for intimate solo acoustic music recordings. The slight reverb combo levels enhance the fullness of the notes.

Please review this again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5kCVXyQDys

All the best, Barry.


alohachris

[rick-slo]

Post a raw recording. Maybe some other's post recording tweaking could improve things.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Barry,

FWIW, overall, much better clarity on the last clip than previous ones. Nice playing! Still, some easily fixed issues.

Opinions:

1) Excessive Reverb - the piece you shared is slow & intimate & that draws the listener closer to it. The amount of reverb on that last clip works against that dynamic. Sure, reverb can hide some of the room issues you have, but in this case, it's working against the music. Try to bring the melody forward in the mix to accentuate its intimacy & reduce the reverb. Maybe even try achieving clarity w/o any EFX at first.

2) EQ the lower mid's, eliminate distortion notes. Many bass & lower mid notes on all the clips here are distorted - very distracting. I listened to them on computer speakers, some very good monitors & some really great larger audiophile speakers & they all clipped out on those notes on your last piece. Why do you think that is, Barry?

Is it the room? Can you hear the distortion, Barry? Try to use light amounts of targeted EQ or even compression to even out the levels & again, bring the melody forward in the mix. Get rid of those low frequency distortions. I also think you need to learn how to bring your recordings up to final CD levels (check out Doug Young's recording video's.)

Overall, your recordings are getting much better. Copy Doug Young's suggestions & you can't go wrong in achieving clarity - especially once you treat your space. If you want tips re: how to use reverbs, go to the second DY recording video I sent you. He shows you how to combine a room with a hall reverb that ends up being barely audible - but it's a much better level for intimate solo acoustic music recordings. The slight reverb combo levels enhance the fullness of the notes.

Please review this again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5kCVXyQDys

All the best, Barry.


alohachris

Thanks Chris.

I put #2 in bold to answer - I don't hear that through my headphones run through my Scarlett 2i4 nor do I hear it through my computer speakers through my soundcard. I did just hear it through my phone though. Also, in Rx7 Standard, on the bottom of the display are two bars for left and right that indicate the DB. For most of the tune the numbers on the far right are negative, but normal color. Halfway through the demo they hit red. I suppose that is the clipping, but the wav form display doesn't show clipping. Hmm, ok I can look into that, thanks.

[alohachris]

Aloha Barry,

Getting more specific about the distorted notes, the problem is more acute in the first half of the song in the area of 100-250 Hz. It sounds like you were hitting the bass key notes for the melody harder at the beginning of the recording. It only occurred a couple times in the second half.

As I said, a little more bass roll off in EQ for the three lower strings & frequencies should help the trebles pop a bit more, seem more connected to the bass key notes, better define the basses & increase overall clarity of the track. Humor me with a minimal reverb sample, ok? Ha! I know you're probably going for that remote & distant, British Isles sound from the Loch or possibly some Michael Hedges affect with the strong reverb on this piece. But let's hear it dry.

Barry, if you can, I agree with rick-slo (a great fingerstylist & recordist) that perhaps you could post a raw recording here & let some of the pro's play with your recording. NOTE: I was never able to take advantage of this great resource. Don't miss out, Barry. Your playing is very good & your recordings are really sounding much better. Thanks for sharing & allowing everyone to help.

See ya soon.

alohachris

[Doug Young]

Barry sent me this track dry (I think this is the same one?), and I much preferred it totally dry. The reverb isn't flattering. But I also wasn't able to find a reverb setting of my own that sounded good here. Sometimes, you can sort of mask the sound of a room with some reverb, but here, what I ran into is that the room sound was making the guitar rather harsh, and it just seemed to make every reverb, even the Bricasti sound mediocre, making the track sound worse than if it was dry. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, so maybe someone else can come up with some way to make it sound good. But I didn't like anything I tried. I think the stereo image and mic placement are working, but this is a case where some work on room acoustics is needed.

By the way, notice that El's recording is pretty dry. He seems to prefer just a slight room reverb, short and not very heavy. He lets the guitar ring, tho, which helps give an impression of more verb than is really there.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Barry,

Getting more specific about the distorted notes, the problem is more acute in the first half of the song in the area of 100-250 Hz. It sounds like you were hitting the bass key notes for the melody harder at the beginning of the recording. It only occurred a couple times in the second half.

As I said, a little more bass roll off in EQ for the three lower strings & frequencies should help the trebles pop a bit more, seem more connected to the bass key notes, better define the basses & increase overall clarity of the track. Humor me with a minimal reverb sample, ok? Ha! I know you're probably going for that remote & distant, British Isles sound from the Loch or possibly some Michael Hedges affect with the strong reverb on this piece. But let's hear it dry.

Barry, if you can, I agree with rick-slo (a great fingerstylist & recordist) that perhaps you could post a raw recording here & let some of the pro's play with your recording. NOTE: I was never able to take advantage of this great resource. Don't miss out, Barry. Your playing is very good & your recordings are really sounding much better. Thanks for sharing & allowing everyone to help.

See ya soon.

alohachris

Hi Chris, here's the recording without reverb:



This is not the file that Doug worked on from another thread. This demo is played with my Avalon with 80/20 strings on it (which I find annoyingly harsh). It is the same recording session as my second recording in my OP.

The other that Doug had was recorded with my Martin. The full reverb version of that recording is currently in my signature.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

By the way, notice that El's recording is pretty dry. He seems to prefer just a slight room reverb, short and not very heavy. He lets the guitar ring, tho, which helps give an impression of more verb than is really there.

That did fool me. I thought he used heavy reverb, so that's why I did mine as heavy as I did. I can hear the difference now in the tail end of my notes as compared to El's now that it is pointed out (thanks for that).

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TBman

That did fool me. I thought he used heavy reverb, so that's why I did mine as heavy as I did.

This is the big challenge with trying to match a recording - you don't know what was done to it. EQ, compression, reverb, etc. But in this case, I'd start by assuming that that's the same sound you'd hear from El with no processing, and see how close you can get. Let the notes ring, focus on a warm round tone, etc. It won't help your room acoustics issues, but it may get you closer. For me, when I try to match someone else's recording sound, 90% of it ends up being getting my fingers to do the right thing. Phrasing, sustain, tone, etc.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by TBman

That did fool me. I thought he used heavy reverb, so that's why I did mine as heavy as I did. I can hear the difference now in the tail end of my notes as compared to El's now that it is pointed out (thanks for that).

Barry I don't remember are you putting the reverb on a separate stereo Aux/Bus track (parallel FX track) ?

If not I suggest you try it. IMO it is a better method than placing reverb on the original audio track ,, allowing 100 % of the original unprocessed audio to go to the main output channels with the reverb effect on an additional stereo Aux/bus track also going to the main outputs . That can then be precisely dialed in by use of lowering the Reverb track fader. Also you can IMO use more reverb effect and yet have it still sound more natural and with more "clarity" than when the verb is place directly on the original audio track . And another perhaps even greater advantageous factor is, you can EQ the reverb without effecting the original guitar audio track.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Barry I don't remember are you putting the reverb on a separate stereo Aux/Bus track (parallel FX track) ?

If not I suggest you try it. IMO it is a better method than placing reverb on the original audio track ,, allowing 100 % of the original unprocessed audio to go to the main output channels with the reverb effect on an additional stereo Aux/bus track also going to the main outputs . That can then be precisely dialed in by use of lowering the Reverb track fader. Also you can IMO use more reverb effect and yet have it still sound more natural and with more "clarity" than when the verb is place directly on the original audio track . And another perhaps even greater advantageous factor is, you can EQ the reverb without effecting the original guitar audio track.

I do that if I use Audition. I like using iZotopes Rx 7 though. You have a good point about the bus output control.

When I use Rx 7 though, I will save the file with a different file name after every major edit/eq. For example, here's the "evolution" of sound files in a "job" folder:

RawTrack
RawTrackEdit
RawTrackEditNoiseReduction
RawTrackEditNoiseReductionOzone8Eq
RawTRackEditNoiseReductionOzone8EqStereoWidth
RawTRackEditNoiseReductionOzone8EqStereoWidthVerb

So if I want to change the reverb later on I can just use the file preceding the addition of the reverb. Its not a perfect system, but for my hobbyist activities its ok.

One question about using a bus. What order are the effects processed? Does it start with #8 and then #7 affects 8 and then #6 effects 7 or does #1 filter through #2, #1 and #2 filter through #3, etc?