What are your opinions on using or making "automated" pieces of music?

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by robj144

I think I asked a similar question a while ago here. I think I asked do you think it's cheating if you use a midi program to play an instrument with a midi keyboard even though you can't actually play it in real life. Like using a midi keyboard to play a virtual trumpet, for instance.

I'm asking a slightly different question now. I can play very rudimentary keyboard parts... I'm not really a keyboard player. But, I have a program which has builtin runs, chords, and licks if you press one key down. So, you can create fairly complex music if you know what to do, but I'm only holding one key down at a time.

You still need to know some theory about when and how to transition from one run to another and you can't just randomly put the licks and runs together or it sounds horrible.

It kind of feels like cheating, but I do make music with it and it's not that simple. Even with these canned runs, it usually takes me hours to play and write something decent with it.

What do you guys think? In the end, I feel a little guilty, but it's still creating music and I can at least play guitar.

Hi Rob,
There are pieces that I write with lyrics, and although I'm primarily an instrumental composer, the stuff I write with lyrics almost always wants drums.

What I have done several times is go to youtube, and come up with a description of a drum beat that I want. I'll almost always know the tempo down to bpm, but finding a loop that someone has put up that serves the groove I need really requires a bunch of searching.

My current project includes one such piece, (The Ritalin Kid) and months ago I found the loop I needed, and I sent it to my engineer/producer to speed correct, and cut & paste.

When I went into record my track it was absolutely perfect for the groove I desired.......but it's a looped track, so it's not very interesting.

I'm currently working with drummer Shawn Pelton on doing the a human track for it. Google him.

Bottom line is you use what you have to use, to do what you need to do to get it right, including spending money on pros.

It ain't cheating if it gets you to where you're going, but you can believe that if I used the loop for the final track, that I'd give the Youtube drummer credit and some cash.

Best,
Howard Emerson

[jim1960]

There's nothing wrong with using vst instruments. It takes a certain skill set to make them sound good just as it takes a certain skill set to make a guitar or any other instrument sound good. The only thing we need be concerned about is whether the end product is something we're proud to put out there in the world.

This song of mine was recorded almost 20 years ago and has no "real" instruments. My vocals and the background vocals are real; the rest is all in the box instruments.

[1neeto]

I think that even if you don’t play the instrument, if you can come up with something on a virtual instrument board, you should at least give yourself some credit for the writing aspect of it. Because at least with GarageBand app, it takes a painful amount of time to write drums on a virtual board and then fix everything on the DAW so it’s on time.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

I think that even if you don’t play the instrument, if you can come up with something on a virtual instrument board, you should at least give yourself some credit for the writing aspect of it. Because at least with GarageBand app, it takes a painful amount of time to write drums on a virtual board and then fix everything on the DAW so it’s on time.

I agree .
By "virtual instrument board" I assume you mean the virtual "keyboard"

Also in general in this thread I think we need to keep in mind the "different" kinds of uses of digital midi music programing.

Ultimately it's all subjective. I look at it this way.
There is original midi programing in all the music, all the notes chords, drum hits etc., all the timing stops starts etc., all the same arrangement things/elements , you do when physically playing an instrument.

And I don't think it matters how you input (program) the midi notes,,, whether you play them in with physical midi keyboard , virtual midi keyboard, or even if you click/pencil in the notes . To my mind that is as you say, your original musical creation of an arrangement.
IMO . The fact that those notes can trigger and emulate numerous different "physical instrument sounds" from drums, to strings, keyboards, woodwinds, etc. or the vast array of synths, and other completely digital sound effects,,,,,,, takes nothing away from that level of creativity.

And then there is programing in using pre arranged digital snippets, riffs, runs, sequence of drum hits, etc. (as the OP was talking about ) in which you are not programing in the individual notes or timing but your are programing in when and where they are used compositionally , which IMO is perhaps a bit less original, but still involves individual creativity.

There are a few other methods involving midi and while still creative to some degree compositionally,,, IMO get less and less original .

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I agree .
By "virtual instrument board" I assume you mean the virtual "keyboard"

Also in general in this thread I think we need to keep in mind the "different" kinds of uses of digital midi music programing.

Ultimately it's all subjective. I look at it this way.
There is original midi programing in all the music, all the notes chords, drum hits etc., all the timing stops starts etc., all the same arrangement things/elements , you do when physically playing an instrument.

And I don't think it matters how you input (program) the midi notes,,, whether you play them in with physical midi keyboard , virtual midi keyboard, or even if you click/pencil in the notes . To my mind that is as you say, your original musical creation of an arrangement.
IMO . The fact that those notes can trigger and emulate numerous different "physical instrument sounds" from drums, to strings, keyboards, woodwinds, etc. or the vast array of synths, and other completely digital sound effects,,,,,,, takes nothing away from that level of creativity.

And then there is programing in using pre arranged digital snippets, riffs, runs, sequence of drum hits, etc. (as the OP was talking about ) in which you are not programing in the individual notes or timing but your are programing in when and where they are used compositionally , which IMO is perhaps a bit less original, but still involves individual creativity.

There are a few other methods involving midi and while still creative to some degree compositionally,,, IMO get less and less original .

To the point concerning different uses, here are 3 examples of musical pieces I've created using 3 different approaches with electronic technology:

This track was done using nothing but loops that came with the Logic Pro X DAW. The creative process was akin to doing a collage or a patchwork quilt. Throwing different things together and seeing what sounds good (at least to my ear).

After working with just loops for a bit I decided to try a hybrid method of music construction using loops to supplement an instrumental keyboard theme that I wrote in a traditional way. This track is a result of that process:


Finally, this is a song which I created using a keyboard workstation featuring a sequencer and virtual instruments. This was an incredibly labor intensive project with virtual instrument assignments, midi timing and my "real" vocal being incorporated into the track. I actually completed the midi sequencing and virtual instrument arrangement before I wrote the lyric and melody for this track. In essence my songwriting process for this track was almost identical to how I write with a guitar: first noodling about to find an interesting sound/lick/chord progression and then proceeding to flesh it out as a song. The only difference for this song was that the electronic workstation took the place of my guitar.


There are myriad ways to create, compose, construct music using modern technology. These examples merely scratch the surface of what is possible.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by catdaddy

To the point concerning different uses, here are 3 examples of musical pieces I've created using 3 different approaches with electronic technology:
There are myriad ways to create, compose, construct music using modern technology. These examples merely scratch the surface of what is possible.

Hey great I found them all different interesting and I really liked the last one Men2B ...

Here is one of my originals with somewhat similar construction. Laid down the audio tracked acoustic guitar rhythm first, then dubbed the vocals all in Pro tools . Then also sampled my own acoustic guitar playing, and used Pro Tools bundled sampler "Structure" to morph the acoustic sound and play in some riffs. Then slaved Reason to ProTools and used Reasons VI's to play in the drums, bass, and some synths and FX's,

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by robj144

...do you think it's cheating if...)

No.

Music is not a sport or a game or any kind of contest at all.
Music is an art. It's self expression using sound.
Just be yourself and follow your muse

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Hey great I found them all different interesting and I really liked the last one Men2B ...

Here is one of my originals with somewhat similar construction. Laid down the audio tracked acoustic guitar rhythm first, then dubbed the vocals all in Pro tools . Then also sampled my own acoustic guitar playing, and used Pro Tools bundled sampler "Structure" to morph the acoustic sound and play in some riffs. Then slaved Reason to ProTools and used Reasons VI's to play in the drums, bass, and some synths and FX's,

Terrific song! Your methodology is intriguing to me. I've never sampled or looped any of my own guitar playing as you've done with Time Is. I really liked your results on multiple levels.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by min7b5

No.

Music is not a sport or a game or any kind of contest at all.
Music is an art. It's self expression using sound.
Just be yourself and follow your muse

I love this answer!

Thanks Eric!

- Glenn

[paulp1960]

I've been a DAW user for as long as I can remember and I've been using Logic Pro X for around 5 years now. I was a midi user in the 80s writing stuff on an Alesis MMT8 hardware midi sequencer synced to a Kawai drum machine and recording to a Yamaha 4 track cassette recorder.

So I use midi and audio tracks in Logic and make good use of the drummer plugin. I use my DAW all the time to practice playing. I always play to a click track or drummer track or metronome.

Using a DAW is probably the single thing that helped me to improve as a player over the years.

I don't know everything in Logic but find it easy to record and playback stuff and use virtual instruments via midi and effects. I would recommend learning a DAW for anybody who wants to get better at playing and wants to make good recordings.

Here's a thing though: My 2 playing buddies are good intermediate guitar players but they can't play their songs over a drum track. They just don't get how that works and that has become really frustrating for me as they have written some good songs but can't sync to an external source of timing.
In my opinion if you can't do that you're not really a musician and need to get some basic rhythmic understanding.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by paulp1960

Here's a thing though: My 2 playing buddies are good intermediate guitar players but they can't play their songs over a drum track. They just don't get how that works and that has become really frustrating for me as they have written some good songs but can't sync to an external source of timing.
In my opinion if you can't do that you're not really a musician and need to get some basic rhythmic understanding.

Playing along with a drum track, click track, or in synch with others is a skill that requires practice. There are plenty of musicians who have never had to do it because they're solo performers. That doesn't eliminate them from what is a musician.

[paulp1960]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Playing along with a drum track, click track, or in synch with others is a skill that requires practice. There are plenty of musicians who have never had to do it because they're solo performers. That doesn't eliminate them from what is a musician.

Fair comment Jim maybe I was too harsh in my judgement. I just get so frustrated. My playing buddies can start playing their songs freestyle and their timing is good. It's up to me to join in once they've started which is easy for me to do and we play pretty good together with good timing. When we play I know where the beats are and where each bar starts in my head. If I play a 4/4 track in the Drummer plug-in I know where the beats are and can match myself up and play in sync. In fact I feel empowered playing with a decent drum track and enjoy the experience, like I did many years ago playing with a real drummer. Surely this isn't a rare skill? I'm always thinking of bringing up the subject and offering to teach my buddies but we are all stubborn near 60 year olds and I don't want to offend. I like the songs they have written and want to do a good production for them.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by paulp1960

I've been a DAW user for as long as I can remember and I've been using Logic Pro X for around 5 years now. I was a midi user in the 80s writing stuff on an Alesis MMT8 hardware midi sequencer synced to a Kawai drum machine and recording to a Yamaha 4 track cassette recorder.

So I use midi and audio tracks in Logic and make good use of the drummer plugin. I use my DAW all the time to practice playing. I always play to a click track or drummer track or metronome.

Using a DAW is probably the single thing that helped me to improve as a player over the years.

I don't know everything in Logic but find it easy to record and playback stuff and use virtual instruments via midi and effects. I would recommend learning a DAW for anybody who wants to get better at playing and wants to make good recordings.

Here's a thing though: My 2 playing buddies are good intermediate guitar players but they can't play their songs over a drum track. They just don't get how that works and that has become really frustrating for me as they have written some good songs but can't sync to an external source of timing.
In my opinion if you can't do that you're not really a musician and need to get some basic rhythmic understanding.

I can feel your frustration/puzzlement. Sometimes a musician just can't do what seems right to do, either because of outlook or skillset. I find sometimes that musician is me (often times to be honest), but sometimes it's someone else and you may have to adapt.

I've played with electronic/sampled drums since the says of the Mattel Synsonic four pad toy or the simple beats on electric keyboards, so adopting to the machine is something I'm accustomed to, and of course as a One Man Band at times I need to adapt to the groove I've set in another track to the best of my ability regularly.

The whole who sets the groove thing is hard for some musicians to work with, solo musicians particularly. If your friends/acoustic guitarist/songwriters can't adopt to the drum groove, but have a rhythmic feel that's valid, you can try to adopt the drum groove to them.*

The Logic Drummer tracks have a setting to automatically try to react with the drum track to another track which can sometimes help. And even the sometimes obtuse 2D matrix adjustment and swing amounts in Logic's Drummer can help as well. You don't even have to use their guitar track as the source for the Drummer to try to react to, you can setup a track you mute that is just mic'ed stomps, keyboard stabs, or some other noise for the Drummer track to try to follow the feel of.

If their tempo shifts, you can beat map the session temp to their guitar track.

If it's occasional extra beats/irregular measures, you can try to mimic that in the session (breaking up the default rigid grids), and one can midi edit the drum tracks too, though that can get laborious. And of course one can play "virtual drums" using the included sounds in Drum VIs, but triggering them manually.

Like a lot of this "Automated" music there's a lot you can do where a human takes control and turns off the auto-pilot--or asks the machine to do it differently, the way the human wants it.


*Or just not use drums. Gypsy jazz and bluegrass have storied traditions of driving rhythm without drums.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by paulp1960

My 2 playing buddies are good intermediate guitar players but they can't play their songs over a drum track. They just don't get how that works and that has become really frustrating for me as they have written some good songs but can't sync to an external source of timing.

I've experienced the same thing trying to collaborate on some tracks remotely recently. Yeah, I don't think it's a musicianship thing... it's just a matter of practice. I've been playing along with electronic beats forever (back in the mid-80s I was in a band where our "drummer" was named Roland....) and even now I still have moments where I lose the groove on a click track.

It is yet another skill that needs to be worked on and honed. Nothing worse than getting a bit off and the drum machine takes off without you... especially live! But it is definitely a skill worth practicing!

[paulp1960]

Thanks for the replies. These two guys I play with have both played in pub bands over 35 years ago. One of them was guitarist in a three piece punk band and they were very popular at a local level. The other guy played bass with me in another band and he played no problem with a real drummer.

I think as the years have rolled by they have just learned and written songs solo whereas I always had a DAW to play with.