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  #16  
Old 06-23-2024, 02:05 PM
DaveVA DaveVA is offline
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Originally Posted by Aspiring View Post
I think that loud and warm is a combo that Blackbird seems to get with ekoa.

I have heard several carbon guitars that are louder and several that are as warm or warmer but not the two qualities together in the same carbon guitar.


Since I just listed my Savoy for sale I’ll agree that ekoa is uniquely warm and load. In all seriousness, I think ekoa sounds great, with most of the durability benefits of CF.
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  #17  
Old 06-23-2024, 02:20 PM
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Acousticado Acousticado is offline
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Fwiw...

I owned a Savoy I’d bought used in early 2018. I recall that it had that M bulge as you describe it behind the bridge (but not that small bump) and also a depression between the bridge and sound hole. Of course, none of my other guitars appeared like that, so I tried to find out if it was normal with ekoa, including with the company owner, but I didn’t get a definitive answer.

Regardless, the tone was unremarkable to my ear, and it just didn’t fit my style of play...it didn’t sit properly on my right leg, forcing me to play it like a classical, which I don’t like.

Given my dislikes, it was too pricey a guitar to keep for what it was, so I sold it. Fastest in/out of any guitar I’ve owned. With the funds, I bought a new Taylor 214ceDLX and 150e 12 string. I still have and like both.
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  #18  
Old 06-23-2024, 02:44 PM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
I agree with Daniel. I've been through just about every CF nylon string made and the Savoy is, in my estimation, the warmest and best sounding of the lot.
Welcome back, Evan - it's been too long without your smiling face around here.
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  #19  
Old 06-23-2024, 02:53 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Thank you, Captain. I have been lurking and have enjoyed your continued contributions to the forum.
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  #20  
Old 06-23-2024, 04:18 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Yes, welcome back Evan. Although I cannot tell if you are smiling [emoji848]?
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  #21  
Old 06-23-2024, 04:19 PM
new2guitar_eh new2guitar_eh is offline
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Welcome back Evan...we've missed you!
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  #22  
Old 06-23-2024, 05:36 PM
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And I've missed all of you. It's good to be back, thank you.
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  #23  
Old 06-23-2024, 06:22 PM
Jimbo00 Jimbo00 is offline
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It does appear to be relatively uniform at the extreme edges of the reference junk mail post card. It's also a photo which might also be better or worse than it it is in real life for a camera angle. What's it like where the bridge is glued on, from the 1st photo the bridge seems to have been thinned at the extreme ends for thickness, but by intentional design.There's no gap under the bridge. It's hard to get anything that has ever been glued together, clamped & planed for perfectly flat.

Here's what I would do. I would contact Blackbird directly and ask them what their stance is for the way the guitar should be, what experience they have for anything warranty on a repair if it's not the way nature intended, the design of the particular instrument as what they build them to specs ? Contacting Blackbird with a serial number, you might also inquire as to the instrument's warranty history ? Whether the guitar was ever sent to them for repair, or whether or not there is any documentation as to a warranty claim that rejected & subsequently denied for the warranty not applying to the scope of warranty terms ? I'd hate to think that this is a case where the guitar is sold as a buyer beware as is & the seller isn't forthright in that. Guitars are like used cars too often.

Since it is a used guitar, here is their warranty. And since you are not the original owner, the non-transferrable clause applies. What year is the guitar, because even their warranty really only covers getting it to a owner as an original 1st time purchase for the 1st time owner of the instrument.

At this point, that doesn't seem to affect the playability of the instrument. But as a 2nd hand resale, how old the guitar is & how much paid for a roughly $ 3K base acoustic with upgrades as additional cost items is relevant for whether anyone would keep/return. Price paid vs durability is an individual thing. What if it never moves after what you see & never is an issue kind of thing ?

https://www.blackbirdguitar.com/page...kbird-warranty

The other thing, a lighted camera for a photo inside the bowl might reveal loose bracing for gaps. I'd attempt to tap on the top lightly to determine if you can hear significant differences at various locations on the top.

Last edited by Jimbo00; 06-23-2024 at 06:38 PM.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2024, 11:13 AM
lushlife lushlife is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo00 View Post
It does appear to be relatively uniform at the extreme edges of the reference junk mail post card. It's also a photo which might also be better or worse than it it is in real life for a camera angle. What's it like where the bridge is glued on, from the 1st photo the bridge seems to have been thinned at the extreme ends for thickness, but by intentional design.There's no gap under the bridge. It's hard to get anything that has ever been glued together, clamped & planed for perfectly flat.

Here's what I would do. I would contact Blackbird directly and ask them what their stance is for the way the guitar should be, what experience they have for anything warranty on a repair if it's not the way nature intended, the design of the particular instrument as what they build them to specs ? Contacting Blackbird with a serial number, you might also inquire as to the instrument's warranty history ? Whether the guitar was ever sent to them for repair, or whether or not there is any documentation as to a warranty claim that rejected & subsequently denied for the warranty not applying to the scope of warranty terms ? I'd hate to think that this is a case where the guitar is sold as a buyer beware as is & the seller isn't forthright in that. Guitars are like used cars too often.

Since it is a used guitar, here is their warranty. And since you are not the original owner, the non-transferrable clause applies. What year is the guitar, because even their warranty really only covers getting it to a owner as an original 1st time purchase for the 1st time owner of the instrument.

At this point, that doesn't seem to affect the playability of the instrument. But as a 2nd hand resale, how old the guitar is & how much paid for a roughly $ 3K base acoustic with upgrades as additional cost items is relevant for whether anyone would keep/return. Price paid vs durability is an individual thing. What if it never moves after what you see & never is an issue kind of thing ?

https://www.blackbirdguitar.com/page...kbird-warranty

The other thing, a lighted camera for a photo inside the bowl might reveal loose bracing for gaps. I'd attempt to tap on the top lightly to determine if you can hear significant differences at various locations on the top.
Thanks for the advice. I did contact Blackbird when I noticed the issue, but have yet to receive a response from them. As I understand they're a small shop and had a fire sometime last year, so I assume responses will be delayed.

I would say that the bump was more prominent in person, and the warping on the top perhaps less so; you could feel it if you ran a finger over it, but you'd either have to view it at an extreme angle or in a particular lighting to see the warping. The guitar has been returned, so unfortunately I can't provide further photographic evidence.

I would also believe that the bump was relatively stable. But also, given the cost of the guitar, I would have preferred something that was 100% worry-free.

Based on the other posts, I suppose carbon fiber is the way to go if that's my criteria. I do appreciate Blackbird's more non-traditional designs such as the Rider and the Super OM; it's a shame they discontinued them.
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  #25  
Old 06-25-2024, 03:38 PM
DDW DDW is offline
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Originally Posted by casualmusic View Post
The fourth web link is to the current Lingrove PDF which says for two layers 0 degrees offset (unidirectional) the Tensile Modulus (Young’s Modulus) is 724 MPa = 0.7 GPa

Doesn’t say anything about 38 GPa…
That is an odd laminate in your link, 2 layers only, and thermoplastic resin. Try this link, which is epoxy and 20 layers. 38 GPa...

0.7 GPa is rather floppy, you could never build a guitar from that. Even spruce is 10x that. Unreinforced nylon is about 3x that. However they laminate it at Blackbird, I guarantee the result isn't 0.7 GPa, string tension would bend it like a banana.

I've talked to Blackbird about warrantee, it covers the first owner for life and no one after that. If they are still in business, I'm sure they could fix it, I'm equally sure it would not be quick or cheap.
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  #26  
Old 06-26-2024, 09:30 AM
casualmusic casualmusic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW View Post
That is an odd laminate in your link, 2 layers only, and thermoplastic resin. Try this link, which is epoxy and 20 layers. 38 GPa...

0.7 GPa is rather floppy, you could never build a guitar from that. Even spruce is 10x that. Unreinforced nylon is about 3x that. However they laminate it at Blackbird, I guarantee the result isn't 0.7 GPa, string tension would bend it like a banana.

I've talked to Blackbird about warrantee, it covers the first owner for life and no one after that. If they are still in business, I'm sure they could fix it, I'm equally sure it would not be quick or cheap.

Wow, twenty layers of pre-Preg linen each layer 3.2 oz/sq yard! Autoclaved in a press!

The Lingrove website seems oriented towards office decor: perhaps the two layer stuff is the spec for veneer and the twenty layer stuff is the spec for structural part of furniture.

Amongst the 14 models of carbon fibre guitars I’ve played the soundboards ranged from approx 2-4mm. Thinnest is KLOS and thickest is CA. Perhaps three to five layers (not counting any honeycomb spacer).

Best regards

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  #27  
Old 06-26-2024, 08:32 PM
DDW DDW is offline
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Don't know how thick the top of a Savoy is. My carbon Blackbird nylon Rider, the top is about 2mm or a little less. it isn't cored, but there are some carbon braces under the bridge. The carbon ones were made in a press as I understand it. Vacuum only gets you 14 psi, a press or autoclave can do better.
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  #28  
Old 06-27-2024, 10:36 PM
Maff Maff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lushlife View Post
(long-time lurker, first time poster)

Hi, I recently acquired a used Blackbird Savoy. Based on the unidirectional top, I’m guessing it’s an earlier model.

I like the size and the sound, and the action seems pretty decent to me. One concern I have, since I’m still within the return policy, is that the top doesn’t appear to be 100% flat behind the bridge. It kind of has an “M” shape that is hard to photograph, and near the lower end of the guitar there’s a protruding bump.

Is this normal or perhaps a bad sign?
I have the same issue with my 2018 Savoy. Unfortunally the truss rod is broken now and the action is to high (saddle is sanded down).

I contacted Blackbird Guitars in 2021 and this was the reply:

-----
Hi Thomas,

I'm Charles the luthier here at BlackBird Guitars.

The older Savoys with the unidirectional top are known to be a little under built and prone to soundboard issues. That bump below the bridge is the end of the center brace that is showing through the top slightly. There are a few things you can do to help keep that guitar in playable condition, Switching to lighter lower tension strings is the main one, even going so far as to use something like a Silk and steel string if you like the sound and playability of that style of string. We designed them around 12-52 80/20 bronze elixir strings, which are quite a bit lower tension than the strings on it right now, and might help reduce the issue but even switching to those isn't necessarily a long term fix.

Unfortunately the warranty is only for the original owner. Usually with a used instrument we would offer the repair at wholesale price but unfortunately on a unidirectional top Savoy the only option is to rebuild the top with a new soundboard, which is impossible on a gloss finished instrument. We can offer you a large discount on a complete replacement Guitar as an option, let me know if that's something you would be interested in, and we can work something out.

If you have any other questions or concerns let me know.

Thanks,
Charles

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