Condenser mics, phantom power and pre-amps

Folkrocket · #1 05-20-2014, 05:05 AM

Hope this doesn't get too long winded. A few months ago I posted here about recording acoustic guitar using the guitar's pick-up with lousy results and was convinced to try a microphone instead. I did and was surprised at how much better it was even though the mic used was old and not very good.
So, I'm looking to get 1 or 2 new mics and don't want to spend a lot. My recording is just for me, for fun. I've been looking at Audio Technica AT 2020 and AT 2021. THe At2020 is described as a side address mic and the AT 2021is a small diaphragm. These 2 are offered as a package through Amazon called AT2041, that's how I heard about them. I know nothing about condenser mics except that they can be good for recording. First, what's the difference between the 2 mics? Do they need phantom power? For vocals, I am now using a shure SM58, should I change? For recording acoustic guitar, which of the 2 AT mics would be better? My recorder has only 1 phantom power input. Do I use a pre-amp to provide additional phantom power? Any pre-amp recommendations? I've got a PA mixer/amp, can I use that to provide phantom power?
As you can see, I'm new at this and not sure what to do. Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be great.
Thanks,
John

MikeBmusic · #2 05-20-2014, 09:29 AM

Yes, these mix need phantom power (make sure you don't accidentally buy the USB versions of any mics.)
As your recorder only has one phantom power-equipped input jack, I wouldn't bother with 2 condensors until you are ready to move up to (overall) better equipment - a better stand-alone recorder or computer recording with DAW and a dedicated audio interface.

Folkrocket · #3 05-20-2014, 10:20 AM

Thanks Mike,
I was wrong. I have a Zoom HD multi-track recorder. It has 2 inputs and (1) phantom power switch that provides 48v to both inputs. So, I can connect 2 condensor mics. My question is if the Shure SM58 (seems fine to me) is OK, and if (1) new mic for acoustic guitar is OK. If (1)is good, is the AT2020 (side address) or the AT2021 (small diaphragm) better.
I'm not looking to "upgrade" the equipment other than mics right now. When I first got the Zoom HD it was considered a good option. I just haven't used it "much" until recently. I have no idea how to interface with an ipad or computer.
John

sonicland · #4 05-20-2014, 04:40 PM

Simple answer, try them both! There is no best way to record acoustic guitar, move the mic around and see what sounds best. Better yet, have someone move the mic to different positions while you play and then listen.

whitecloud · #5 05-20-2014, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkrocket

Hope this doesn't get too long winded. A few months ago I posted here about recording acoustic guitar using the guitar's pick-up with lousy results and was convinced to try a microphone instead. I did and was surprised at how much better it was even though the mic used was old and not very good.
So, I'm looking to get 1 or 2 new mics and don't want to spend a lot. My recording is just for me, for fun. I've been looking at Audio Technica AT 2020 and AT 2021. THe At2020 is described as a side address mic and the AT 2021is a small diaphragm. These 2 are offered as a package through Amazon called AT2041, that's how I heard about them. I know nothing about condenser mics except that they can be good for recording. First, what's the difference between the 2 mics? Do they need phantom power? For vocals, I am now using a shure SM58, should I change? For recording acoustic guitar, which of the 2 AT mics would be better? My recorder has only 1 phantom power input. Do I use a pre-amp to provide additional phantom power? Any pre-amp recommendations? I've got a PA mixer/amp, can I use that to provide phantom power?
As you can see, I'm new at this and not sure what to do. Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be great.
Thanks,
John

Too bad a few places had the AT-2020 for around 50 bucks not long ago. Thing is if my memory serves me right the 2020 is not a full size LDC and the pencil mic they offer in that bundle is basically the same mic in a front loaded end. Better than nothing(the 2041 bundle) but I have used my friends(the same ones you are interested in), and they are collecting dust, though they got him started.
For 30 bucks more you can get the Cad e70 bundle I bought this month and it will kill the cheap AT's you are considering for Acoustic guitar and other sources except vocals. If you are at the absolute budget limit of $200.00 and under. Here are thoughts. If you can get by with the SM58 for a bit longer and want good acoustic guitar tracks for a reasonable price get the CAD e70 Stereo bundle. Then figure how you may ant to upgrade from the SM58, for a dynamic mic I liked the Sennheiser e835 much better than the 58 .Heck some like the SM57 better than the 58 for vocals. I am mentioning dynamic mics over condensers for vocals as it is a shame to spend low on LDC's that will soon end up door stops or weapons.
If you can't see you spending any more $ for mics in the next 6 months to year and want to record Acoustic guitar, not happy with the 58 for your vocals and are restricted to $200.00 and under, get the AT bundle.
If you want a set of SDC's that you'll have and use for quite some time get the Cad and see what works out for a vocal mic later on. Here is where I got my CAD's
http://www.zenproaudio.com/cad-e70-stereo-pair-bundle
Great deal and in the last dew days have done some better tracks with them since the first I posted on a thread here in the Record forum

Mobilemike · #6 05-20-2014, 10:29 PM

I haven't used the 2021 but the AT2020 is a surprisingly nice mic for the money. It is absolutely worth having in your arsenal if you're doing your own recording. There have been a couple of instances where I've chosen the AT2020 over much higher priced mics like the Neumann U87 and AKG 414 because it fit the sound of the track better.

That said... the 2020 is a large/medium diaphragm mic and the 2021 is a small diaphragm. Usually small diaphragm mics are preferred on acoustic guitar because the capsule is smaller, and therefore reacts to sounds more quickly, which means it picks up a bit more high frequency sparkle than a similar large/medium diaphragm mic would. So I think both mics would work well for you - the 2020 would give you more of a round, warm tone and the 2021 would give a bit more detail and sparkle.

You could always use both and blend to taste!

Cheers!
-Mike

Ty Ford · #7 05-21-2014, 07:11 AM

[QUOTE=Mobilemike;3963622 Usually small diaphragm mics are preferred on acoustic guitar because the capsule is smaller, and therefore reacts to sounds more quickly, which means it picks up a bit more high frequency sparkle than a similar large/medium diaphragm mic would.
Cheers!
-Mike[/QUOTE]

Don't know that I'd go that far with the attributes. There are LD mics that have quite a bright sound. The U 87 is a lot peakier than the smaller capsuled U 89, for example.

The KM84 is a lot more mellow than the KM 184 and they're both SD mics.

Decades ago, I used to think that mics with bigger diaphragms picked up more bass. Nope, that's about diaphragm tension and on-board circuitry.

Regards,

Ty Ford

whitecloud · #8 05-21-2014, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobilemike

I haven't used the 2021 but the AT2020 is a surprisingly nice mic for the money. It is absolutely worth having in your arsenal if you're doing your own recording. There have been a couple of instances where I've chosen the AT2020 over much higher priced mics like the Neumann U87 and AKG 414 because it fit the sound of the track better.

That said... the 2020 is a large/medium diaphragm mic and the 2021 is a small diaphragm. Usually small diaphragm mics are preferred on acoustic guitar because the capsule is smaller, and therefore reacts to sounds more quickly, which means it picks up a bit more high frequency sparkle than a similar large/medium diaphragm mic would. So I think both mics would work well for you - the 2020 would give you more of a round, warm tone and the 2021 would give a bit more detail and sparkle.

You could always use both and blend to taste!

Cheers!
-Mike

I am glad you are still finding usage and sources to warrant keeping the 2020. Personally can't think of anything I would use it on and that is with my very modest mic locker. My Pal that owns that AT-Pair feels the same.
Another option is just get a CAD m179 @ $129.00 and call it good for now. Many that have bought that mic still keep and use it. The adjustable pattern is quite ingenious. Granted this is assuming that one track at a time is being recorded , but I suppose in Full omni one could sing and play guitar at the same time in a pinch.
And there is always the MXL V67g @$84.00 and then one could pick up a SDC like the Golden Age FC-4 which is one of several re-branded mics. but here again just a single CAD e70 is not much more if not the same price and one worth having around.
So summing it up I would rather have a MXL V67G and a e70(or FC-4) or a m179 and one of the other SDC's I just mentioned.
These suggestions come to around the same price point as the AT-2041 bundle. Don't get me wrong I love AT mics, just not the ones in this bundle. A definite step down from their other offerings that cost just a bit more.

whitecloud · #9 05-21-2014, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Don't know that I'd go that far with the attributes. There are LD mics that have quite a bright sound. The U 87 is a lot peakier than the smaller capsuled U 89, for example.

The KM84 is a lot more mellow than the KM 184 and they're both SD mics.

Decades ago, I used to think that mics with bigger diaphragms picked up more bass. Nope, that's about diaphragm tension and on-board circuitry.

Regards,

Ty Ford

You got that right but worth noting that SDC's usually capture transients faster than LDC's
In this months(May) edition of Mix magazine there is a good read called "Smart Microphone selection What to grab and why"
Nothing earth shattering or new, but it gives some good info and tips in a less than 5 minute reading.

Folkrocket · #10 05-21-2014, 12:08 PM

Thanks for the responses. Now I'm more confused! AT, MXL, CAD.....
What started all this was my dissatisfaction with how my acoustic guitars sounded when recording using the guitar's pick-up. My recording is just for me, basically just to hear how things sound. I'm trying to determine how much "better" a condenser mic will sound over the Shure SM58, and what is the best for acoustic guitar. Now I'm leaning towards just keeping the sure for vocals (seems to work just fine for me) and get 1 for the guitar. Which one is the question. It seems that a small diaphragm might be the way to go for me. I will typically play and sing (hey I try) at the same time. I'm thinking that the small diaphragm may be better at picking up just the guitar and let the Shure pick up primarily the vocal. But I'm not sure. As far as what brand, I'm lost.
John

RedJoker · #11 05-21-2014, 12:23 PM

I have an ES57 (a shure SM57 clone), two SM58 clones, and two Behringer C2s; most were given to me. I record for the exact same reason you do, just to see how I'm doing. Though it's fun to get into the details of recording, mic selection, mic placement, dynamic vs condenser, I've found that BY FAR the biggest effect on recording quality is my playing and singing. I can detect a difference between mics and placement but only if I really pay attention or A/B them. The string buzz, poor timing, poor rhythm, missed chords, etc. are WAY more noticeable than whether I used the wrong mic. I now have way more tools than I need to keep me busy for a long time.

Folkrocket · #12 05-21-2014, 12:39 PM

RedJoker,
I guess what you mean is that the quality of your playing and singing has the biggest influence on the quality of your recordings. I get that. The biggest complaint I had with using just the guitar's pick-up was the "trashy" sound on playback and how it somehow sounded like a poor quality electric rather than a nice, clear acoustic sound. I've got good guitars (Guild F50R, Gibson Songwriter Deluxe, Martin D-41) and when I started using an old Peavey dynamic mic that I had layin' around (not even sure where I got it!), the recorded acoustic sound improved quite a bit. I'm looking to go to the next level.
John

RedJoker · #13 05-21-2014, 01:16 PM

That's funny as I did the exact same thing. I liked the sound from my radio shack dynamic much better than the pickups directly. Now, the differences are far more subtle. The "next level" is now relatively small for me with respect to mics. Sure, I think my recordings will continue to not be of the highest quality but I guarantee that if you listen to any of my recordings, you won't say that microphone quality is the thing that needs improving.

Having said all that, I hope to someday get to where you are, where a good mic is what I need to make higher quality recordings. In the meantime, please keep sharing what you find so we all can keep learning together.

Good Luck!

whitecloud · #14 05-21-2014, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkrocket

RedJoker,
I guess what you mean is that the quality of your playing and singing has the biggest influence on the quality of your recordings. I get that. The biggest complaint I had with using just the guitar's pick-up was the "trashy" sound on playback and how it somehow sounded like a poor quality electric rather than a nice, clear acoustic sound. I've got good guitars (Guild F50R, Gibson Songwriter Deluxe, Martin D-41) and when I started using an old Peavey dynamic mic that I had layin' around (not even sure where I got it!), the recorded acoustic sound improved quite a bit. I'm looking to go to the next level.
John

I don't blame you. My Breedlove Passport D250Sme(6 string) and C250 SMe 12 string)
have pickups systems which don't please me however I was planning on using a mic anyway. All I use the system for is the tuner

You already have been given suggestions for mics and some SDC's. FYI the MXL 604's and the Golden age Projects FC-4 are the same mic, only re-branded, Both around 100 bucks with two capsules and around 80 bucks for just Cardoid. The Behringer C-2 is like 60 bucks. When I was shopping for SDC's my budget was actually higher and I was looking at the AT 4041 they usally go for $300.00 then I found a place I could get one new for 250, and saw a B-stock for around $190.00 but that never materialized. Then I went to YouTube and started listening to other candidates as well. I got a recommnedation from a Trusted retailer to check out the CAD e70's even though he sold some of the other mics I was looking into and ones that cost more. On the forums many say the e70's can be bright. However with the shoot-outs I heard and watched I was surprised that they were actually not harsh or spikey but almost warm on some examples. So Here I am again recommending this mic even if it is just one and not a bundle. Pretty much about the same price as the MXL and Golden Age but I feel a better product. So with these choice from the C-2 to the E70 we are talking 60-110 bucks. So research them, listen to clips. Here is one that helped me decide but even if you choose another mic, you can use the info and techniques

btw the big mic he is talking into(voice-over) is the Shure SM7b(he turns it off when using the e70) The SM7b is my main vocal mic. I am not recommending you buying that, it was just a coincidence

whitecloud · #15 05-21-2014, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedJoker

I have an ES57 (a shure SM57 clone), two SM58 clones, and two Behringer C2s; most were given to me. I record for the exact same reason you do, just to see how I'm doing. Though it's fun to get into the details of recording, mic selection, mic placement, dynamic vs condenser, I've found that BY FAR the biggest effect on recording quality is my playing and singing. I can detect a difference between mics and placement but only if I really pay attention or A/B them. The string buzz, poor timing, poor rhythm, missed chords, etc. are WAY more noticeable than whether I used the wrong mic. I now have way more tools than I need to keep me busy for a long time.

Sorry for the hijack but thought these comments may be of interest.
Have you thought about getting a pocket recorder? Not just Audio the but something you can hear and see improvements perhaps the Zoom Q2HD video recorder. Sounds like you are leaning more into improving performance and this may be another angle to consider. I thought about it myself but found the Zooms Video isn't great but the Audio is. I hope to go another route using a Webcam and one or more of my own mics. One that I came across is the Logitech C930e I have seen great video quality vids on YT.I guess much of the Video processing is done on the Webcam hardware itself so not as much computer resources are required. Can be mounted on a tripod. shoot I already have mics, so the built it ones are of no concern. Just a thought.