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  #16  
Old 11-20-2019, 01:54 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Originally Posted by FwL View Post
I was in a situation where I subbed on bass for the backup band at a local country music contest. One of the songs was in a major key and did, in fact, include the diminished vii chord with the bass line clearly outlining the triad.

The problem was that none of the other players could wrap their head around playing a Bdim in the key of C. When I pointed out that the bass line was laying out B diminished I was told by the lead guitar player that there is no such thing as a diminished chord in the major key and I was playing it wrong.

The rest of the band agreed with him, so we all played Bmin instead, and I tried not to visibly cringe, onstage, when the vocal melody rubbed against the chord.

.
Ugh.

Diminished chords are all over Classic Country music.
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  #17  
Old 11-20-2019, 05:58 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
Ugh.

Diminished chords are all over Classic Country music.
Examples please!
(I don't doubt you, I just want examples.)
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  #18  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:27 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Examples please!
(I don't doubt you, I just want examples.)
Don't play "crazy" or "friends in low places" without 'em

(And hundreds more, especially "classic Nashville style country,")
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  #19  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:39 PM
Wissen Wissen is offline
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I had Friends in Low Places in the front of my mind when I wrote this. Which is why I said "Usually". There are always exceptions that prove the rule.

And even in those two cases, the diminished chords are created entirely by interesting chromatic movement in the bass. This is where the real and the academic run up against each other. It's more likely that the songwriters said "Hey, it would sound really cool if the bass moved from the I to the ii with a chromatic passing tone." Than is that they said "I think this is a prime spot for a half diminished chord." Especially because it isn't even the vii dim that started this whole conversation.

So yes. Most every place you see a diminished chord in modern music, it was someone playing through a cool idea and writing the chord names down later.
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  #20  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:42 PM
Wissen Wissen is offline
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Originally Posted by FwL View Post
I was in a situation where I subbed on bass for the backup band at a local country music contest. One of the songs was in a major key and did, in fact, include the diminished vii chord with the bass line clearly outlining the triad.

The problem was that none of the other players could wrap their head around playing a Bdim in the key of C. When I pointed out that the bass line was laying out B diminished I was told by the lead guitar player that there is no such thing as a diminished chord in the major key and I was playing it wrong.

The rest of the band agreed with him, so we all played Bmin instead, and I tried not to visibly cringe, onstage, when the vocal melody rubbed against the chord.

.
That's where you puff out your chest, get a smug grin on your face, and announce to the rest of the band "You all just stay right where you are. I'll handle this!"

Bonus points for the Superman dash off stage.
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  #21  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:05 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by Wissen View Post
It's more likely that the songwriters said "Hey, it would sound really cool if the bass moved from the I to the ii with a chromatic passing tone." Than is that they said "I think this is a prime spot for a half diminished chord." ...So yes. Most every place you see a diminished chord in modern music, it was someone playing through a cool idea and writing the chord names down later.
Guys, this is just absurd. A diminished chord, and diminished seventh chord are pretty common in many styles of music: they are a pretty basic part of music of the Western culture. They are not difficult to play on a guitar.

Sure, some songwriters just play what they like and then try to figure out what they played after the fact. However, there are many who are well versed in traditional music theory and use it to assist in their composition.

One of the very common uses of a diminished seventh chord is as a pivot chord from one key to another. The four notes (pitches) that comprise a diminished seventh chord can be named in four different ways depending upon what came before the chord and what comes after it. That is, the same four notes function differently depending upon context.

Denying the existence of diminished chords is similar to saying, "There's no such thing as a minor chord". Both are basic, fundamental components of (Western) music. Refusing to learn them is to eliminate colours from your musical pallete.

Here is one of many, many examples of popular songs where a diminished seventh chord is used: Jim Croce's New York's Not My Home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf8fi86SPHQ

[As an aside, the guy in the video lesson identifies the chord as Fdim7. It isn't. It is G#dim7. They are exactly the same four notes, but named differently. Named correctly, they are a diminished seventh chord built on the seventh degree (VII), G#, in the key of A major. The notes are G#, B, D, F. It is an example of exactly the question asked by the OP.

One of the reasons that it is not Fdim7 is that the notes comprising Fdim7, F, Ab, Cb, Ebb, are not found in the key of A major. The notes of the G#dim7 are all found in the key of A major, built from notes in the key of A major. While there are many examples of chords built on, or using, notes that are not part of the key being played in, this isn't one of those: this is an example that demonstrates a traditional/common stereotypical use of a dim7 chord built on VII. It is VIIdim7 resolving to I, a very common progression.]

Last edited by charles Tauber; 11-20-2019 at 10:38 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:09 AM
frankmcr frankmcr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
Don't play "crazy" or "friends in low places" without 'em

(And hundreds more, especially "classic Nashville style country,")
Yes.

Acceptable alternative answer:

Any song produced by Chet Atkins.
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  #23  
Old 11-21-2019, 02:42 AM
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The reason a lot of people claim that the half diminished hardly ever crops up is because they predominantly play songs that don’t contain them, and it’s the same with augmented chords.

I hardly play them in my set but my teacher ensures that I know them and why/when they are used. So when I practice I generally mess about with diminished chords and get the feel for what they do.

One of my favorite songs that uses diminished chords is ‘Ripples’ by Genesis.
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  #24  
Old 11-21-2019, 03:30 AM
capefisherman capefisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
To be clear, he explains that he is flattening the F# note to make an F major chord.
And he also (partly) explains why: the F chord is "used more often", as the VII (or rather bVII) in the key of G.
IOW, songs in the key of G major - at least in rock music - use an F major chord very often, and never use the F#dim chord.

Where he cuts corners is he doesn't explain what the diatonic vii chord is, nor why that chord is rarely used.
The reason it's not used is three-fold:
(1) it's tricky to play;
(2) its three notes (F# A C) are all contained in the D7 chord, which is much easier (and sounds better and is more useful);
(3) nobody else (in rock, folk or country) uses it. So why would you?

The F#dim IS commonly used in jazz, where it gets two kinds of 7th:
F#m7b5 (half-diminished), F#Ø = F# A C E. Used as the ii chord in key of E minor. (I.e., in the sequence F#m7b5 - B7 - Em.)
F#dim7, F#º7 = F# A C Eb. From the vii degree of G harmonic minor, and used as a vii chord in keys of G minor and G major.
Both these chords are easier to play - and more useful - than the plain dim triad.

You also sometimes find dim7 chords used in blues, at least the jazzier kinds. You might also find the m7b5 chord used as a rootless dom9 chord (D9 without the D is F#m7b5). But this is all a little more advanced than the lesson he's presenting in that video.
This is exactly how I explain it to my students. Well said!
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  #25  
Old 11-21-2019, 05:05 AM
JerrysGuitarBar JerrysGuitarBar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post

Here is one of many, many examples of popular songs where a diminished seventh chord is used: Jim Croce's New York's Not My Home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf8fi86SPHQ

[As an aside, the guy in the video lesson identifies the chord as Fdim7. It isn't. It is G#dim7. They are exactly the same four notes, but named differently. Named correctly, they are a diminished seventh chord built on the seventh degree (VII), G#, in the key of A major. The notes are G#, B, D, F. It is an example of exactly the question asked by the OP.
As the maker of that video I agree with what you say. I got lazy and used the fact that the notes are the same to suggest that the chord names can be interchangeable. They technically can't and you're right to make that point.
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  #26  
Old 11-21-2019, 05:34 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
Don't play "crazy" or "friends in low places" without 'em

(And hundreds more, especially "classic Nashville style country,")
Thanks. I knew "Crazy" of course, I didn't know "Friends in Low Places".
I guess I think of such songs as popular standards, rather than country specifically, but obviously that's just a matter of arbitrary pigeon-holing.

A bit like saying "Rock music is simple", because you're excluding Steely Dan from your "Rock" pigeon-hole.
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  #27  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:41 AM
Wissen Wissen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Guys, this is just absurd. A diminished chord, and diminished seventh chord are pretty common in many styles of music: they are a pretty basic part of music of the Western culture. They are not difficult to play on a guitar.

Allow me to more narrowly define my point. I did not do it very well the first time.

"A vii half-diminished chord where a Dominant V7 would do is rare in folk music and it's descendant genres."

I'm not particularly interested in a pedantic discussion about the abundance of diminished chords in the entire realm of Western music.

Every single person who has responded is 100% correct on all of their points. Let's all grab a beer to celebrate.
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:55 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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And while I pour...

DesertTwang, you still there? Don't let us geeks chase you off.
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  #29  
Old 11-21-2019, 07:15 AM
Caddy Caddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Maybe the reason no teacher ever told you that is because it's wrong. The last chord is actually F# diminished.
Exactly true.
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  #30  
Old 11-21-2019, 07:29 AM
Caddy Caddy is offline
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Figured bass can be used to show chord progressions that can be played in any key. Jazz players in particular have used it fairly often so that they can use it to play in any chosen key.

Represented by Roman numerals, caps being major chords, lower case being minor chords (the 7th is a diminished chord).

Looks like this in a major key:
I ii iii IV V vi viidim

Sorry don't have the symbol for dim.

So, in the key of C the 7th would be B diminished. Since in a diminished chord there are 3 half steps between the root (B) and the third and another 3 half steps between the third and fifth of the triad that would make the notes in B diminished B D F.

In music theory class in college when we wrote compositions we would have to show the figured bass below.

Last edited by Caddy; 11-21-2019 at 08:01 AM.
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