New Oktava MK-012-01

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Oh no,
sorry about that! Try this? Works for me: http://www.antoinedufourmusic.com/

Then go to music and listen to anything off of convergences.

EDIT:

I have no idea what I'm doing but..... 4 tracks, high compression ratio, large reverb but far back in the mix: https://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/huge-test Sorry for the bad playing!

Not a comment on your clip, just a general observation. It's hard to stress how important listening level is in judging your recordings. Our auditory system is very much affected by volume, and our naive but erroneous expectations are that we can recognize volume and compensate in our judgments. But in fact we cannot.

So when comparing tracks (especially when we're shooting for "huge") we need to compare them at the same level of loudness in our room. So an inexpensive tool for measuring loudness is a very very useful thing to have. Nowadays there's an app for that, but if our phone doesn't support such things Radio Shack offers an alternative at around $50. This is definitely a better investment than a "high end" cable, for instance.

Fran

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

I have no idea what I'm doing but..... 4 tracks, high compression ratio, large reverb but far back in the mix: https://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/huge-test Sorry for the bad playing!

A familiar tune :-) This sounds rather thin to me. More details on your mic setup here? If you want to send me the original tracks, I'd be glad to dig into them a little and may be suggest something. In your quest for "huge", would the sound of my recording of this qualify? I might be able to compare a little. Antoine often mixes in a pickup, which may be part of what you like with his sound - it adds a directness and punch.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Oh no,
sorry about that! Try this? Works for me: http://www.antoinedufourmusic.com/

Then go to music and listen to anything off of convergences.

EDIT:

I have no idea what I'm doing but..... 4 tracks, high compression ratio, large reverb but far back in the mix: https://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/huge-test Sorry for the bad playing!

What happened to the Hallie sound? That one was really good.
On this one it is a little brittle sounding with too much reverb.

Compression will not give you a bigger soundstage or warm up
the sound in most cases.

Pick a reverb (or equalize your reverb) that avoids the higher
frequency hash in the reverb tail. I like a reverb to give more
body to the notes. Long reverb tails are secondary (or tertiary,
or quaternary ).

Oh, regarding Dufour's sound, install a pickup on your guitar.

[alohachris]

Aloha Zach,

How are those early AM runs through the VA countryside treating you?

I really like how fast you've been able to progress towards very good recordings with your relatively recently acquired recording signal chain. Bravo! Those mic's are a really great value & investment, aren't they?

You're a very good player too for your age.

RE: Room treatment. It IS NOT an option - to not use it, if you're interested in better acoustic recordings. Go to a mover's & ask for free used mover's blankets. Hammer in 1/2" grommets (Home Depot) along one edge for hanging. Then hang them 4" off your windows (reflections off of which I can hear in your latest recording). Hang one over you too. You only need 3-6 mover's blankets to help control the obvious, early mid-range reflections in any space you use. It's fairly lightweight & portable!

http://www.uline.com/bl_7900/Moving-Blankets

Try it! It'll give you more mic placement choices & more frequency definition across the spectrum, by controlling the mid's. You don't need much money to seriously control those killer reflections in all the spaces you use & improve your recordings.

But your recordings are getting better & better.

Can I make a suggestion, Zach. This is from a guy who never shares his music at these sites for criticism, so take it with however many grains of salt you wish.

Take a class in percussion. Or get a conga & sit in at some drum circles.

This will improve your use of tapping techniques on an acoustic guitar. It will provide a context for knowing when & how to use & vary percussion on an acoustic guitar. How to get develop touch & poly-rhythmic ability so you're dynamics don't challenge or kill your recordings or require more compression than should be used.

I have seen many a player pounding away, wowing the audience with this "new" style when he first discovers "Aerial Boundaries" only to not know when to do it or how to vary it. The result is often kinda a different version of "white man's disease" that I see. Painful to watch or listen to, that one-stroke approach. Know when not to apply it. And if it's not a tool you can develop, don't use it.

What most players don't know is how much soul & developed sense of rhythm that Michael Hedges had inside of him, in his body - even sitting in repose. He was also a fine percussion player on many kinds of drums. Sure, we all want to tap into that, right? But restraint is also part of that picture. Most guitar plsyers don't seem to know how to back off of one pattern or honor God's beat between the notes when we are young. Something to ponder from an old gigger.

If these words don't register, then I apologize. They are meant to help. Study percussion a bit is my suggestion.

And a little walk through Richie Havens-land might also help with the concepts & right hand techniques used in turning an acoustic guitar into a percussive box, as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja942GexD-U

I have a lot of respect for how much you are growing, Zach, especially with all the time & budgetary constraints of a student-athlete (I played hoops in college, so I know). Keep up the good work, and recordings, Zach! Thanks for sharing your music with us.

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Not a comment on your clip, just a general observation. It's hard to stress how important listening level is in judging your recordings. Our auditory system is very much affected by volume, and our naive but erroneous expectations are that we can recognize volume and compensate in our judgments. But in fact we cannot.

So when comparing tracks (especially when we're shooting for "huge") we need to compare them at the same level of loudness in our room. So an inexpensive tool for measuring loudness is a very very useful thing to have. Nowadays there's an app for that, but if our phone doesn't support such things Radio Shack offers an alternative at around $50. This is definitely a better investment than a "high end" cable, for instance.

Fran

Yeah I actually have a couple of meters on my iPhone that I use to measure playback. When mixing I also set the level of my speakers at one constant setting and then play within the project.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

A familiar tune :-) This sounds rather thin to me. More details on your mic setup here? If you want to send me the original tracks, I'd be glad to dig into them a little and may be suggest something. In your quest for "huge", would the sound of my recording of this qualify? I might be able to compare a little. Antoine often mixes in a pickup, which may be part of what you like with his sound - it adds a directness and punch.

Yes, it's my favorite of yours. I've been working on it -though that was an older recording after I'd only been playing it for a few hours. Your sound on it is certainly way closer to what I want than most stuff but it's not as "in your face" as I want my fingerstyle tunes. For stuff like Shenandoah however, I'd love to be able to get a sound like that. I watched your video so I know you used MS but even your stereo tracks at the beginning, unprocessed and all sounded great to me.

I can definitely send you a set of tracks, let me get on that. Drop box ok? I'll post them here so anyone can play with them.

I have an LR baggs anthem and I used to play with it a lot but it's always had a brittle, unrealistic sound for me when I record. Not that I'm necessarily going for realism, but it's not the hugeness I want either. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly?

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Zach,

How are those early AM runs through the VA countryside treating you?

I really like how fast you've been able to progress towards very good recordings with your relatively recently acquired recording signal chain. Bravo! Those mic's are a really great value & investment, aren't they?

You're a very good player too for your age.

RE: Room treatment. It IS NOT an option - to not use it, if you're interested in better acoustic recordings. Go to a mover's & ask for free used mover's blankets. Hammer in 1/2" grommets (Home Depot) along one edge for hanging. Then hang them 4" off your windows (reflections off of which I can hear in your latest recording). Hang one over you too. You only need 3-6 mover's blankets to help control the obvious, early mid-range reflections in any space you use. It's fairly lightweight & portable!

http://www.uline.com/bl_7900/Moving-Blankets

Try it! It'll give you more mic placement choices & more frequency definition across the spectrum, by controlling the mid's. You don't need much money to seriously control those killer reflections in all the spaces you use & improve your recordings.

But your recordings are getting better & better.

Can I make a suggestion, Zach. This is from a guy who never shares his music at these sites for criticism, so take it with however many grains of salt you wish.

Take a class in percussion. Or get a conga & sit in at some drum circles.

This will improve your use of tapping techniques on an acoustic guitar. It will provide a context for knowing when & how to use & vary percussion on an acoustic guitar. How to get develop touch & poly-rhythmic ability so you're dynamics don't challenge or kill your recordings or require more compression than should be used.

I have seen many a player pounding away, wowing the audience with this "new" style when he first discovers "Aerial Boundaries" only to not know when to do it or how to vary it. The result is often kinda a different version of "white man's disease" that I see. Painful to watch or listen to, that one-stroke approach. Know when not to apply it. And if it's not a tool you can develop, don't use it.

What most players don't know is how much soul & developed sense of rhythm that Michael Hedges had inside of him, in his body - even sitting in repose. He was also a fine percussion player on many kinds of drums. Sure, we all want to tap into that, right? But restraint is also part of that picture. Most guitar plsyers don't seem to know how to back off of one pattern or honor God's beat between the notes when we are young. Something to ponder from an old gigger.

If these words don't register, then I apologize. They are meant to help. Study percussion a bit is my suggestion.

And a little walk through Richie Havens-land might also help with the concepts & right hand techniques used in turning an acoustic guitar into a percussive box, as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja942GexD-U

I have a lot of respect for how much you are growing, Zach, especially with all the time & budgetary constraints of a student-athlete (I played hoops in college, so I know). Keep up the good work, and recordings, Zach! Thanks for sharing your music with us.

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

I'm dealing with getting old... All of you will probably laugh at me since I'm 21 but I have achilles tendonitis, the result of running nearly every day for 11 years. I'm only getting a few runs in a week now, the rest is spent swimming, desperately trying to stay in tip top shape.

Movers blankets eh? That sounds affordable and easy. I do have two huge windows in my room and nothing on my walls. My bedroom is pretty difficult to record in. So, one on each window and one just above me? Sounds great. I'll see if I can't pick some up and play with that.

As for percussion, I've been taking drum and percussion lessons for about two years now. Though I don't think I have anything uploaded that's shown that yet. All of my really percussive stuff was done before I started taking lessons and the last video I uploaded had me just searching for sounds. You're right though,I have a lot to learn. Especially with dynamics.

It does register, for sure. I just need to keep working and working. Thanks for the post, I always appreciate them.

EDIT:

I'll upload a recording to drop box in a bit with the lowered preamps and a pickup.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

For stuff like Shenandoah however, I'd love to be able to get a sound like that. I watched your video so I know you used MS but even your stereo tracks at the beginning, unprocessed and all sounded great to me.

On my recent recordings, I've been using 4 mics, one pair in MS, the other spaced pairs. The spaced pairs dominates most of the time.

I can definitely send you a set of tracks, let me get on that. Drop box ok? I'll post them here so anyone can play with them.

Sure.

I have an LR baggs anthem and I used to play with it a lot but it's always had a brittle, unrealistic sound for me when I record. Not that I'm necessarily going for realism, but it's not the hugeness I want either. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly?

Antoine is using a K&K which may sound warmer, but I'd think an Anthem would work. You just add a little to the mix to get that more direct sound. To me, the "huge" aspect of Antoine's sound comes from the pickup sound, quite a bit of compression, close micing, lowered tunings, and of course, his playing technique, which is where the "in-your-face" starts. The guitar may play a role as well. Room acoustics also plays a role. The guitar sounds more direct when it's just coming out of nowhere, with no competing noise, so room sound to trigger the cues that you're in a small room.

If I was trying to replicate his sound, I'd start by playing one of his pieces and trying to match his tone on that, so you are at least comparing apples and apples.

[alohachris]

Aloha Zach,

Parallel realities - 43 years apart. I had to deal with permanent & premature physical limitations as well when I was your age. Basketball was my first truly obsessive passion in life. I was all in. I played it year round from the time I was six & learned it on the upper, upper West Side courts against many future NBA Hall of Famers & players..

I thought I was on track for the NBA (don't laugh guys). Many of my basketball friends from my early NYC days went on to do so. I was in their league, so to speak in terms of ability (much better for shooting - averaged 28 pts. one year in college).

The last 10 seconds of the last game of my freshman year @ UConn, after scoring 49 points, I blew out my right knee. Instantly, the dream was gone. Lost my lateral movement & couldn't guard at the NBA level anymore. My NBA dream be eff-ed!

After an exceptionally long & painful rehab (the first of many), I couldn't play the following year. I did play for two years & did well enough to earn a coupla years of playing pro in France. But wasn't drafted by any NBA or ABA team. Some execs told me that I could shoot better than most NBA players - a bone at least. I played in leagues & pickup games up until I was 54. That earned me 8 operations, & ultimately, two total knee replacements (no more surfing).

Living in the Islands, I've been swimming a mile or two in the aquamarine Pacific Ocean everyday after work for nearly four decades now. Love it. But nothing has ever given me what basketball did, Zach. So I feel your pain. Keep swimming your whole life! This is where I swim everyday:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAA&dur=286

Ya know, some bodies just are not made for the activities we choose @ an early age, Zach. Who knew i had such weak connective tissue? Perhaps running is not a life-long activity for you, though you do excel at it, huh?

RE: Work, work, work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNm5RZoL2Ro

Have a great Sunday, Zachary! Enjoy playing as much as we do listening to you.

alohachris

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

On my recent recordings, I've been using 4 mics, one pair in MS, the other spaced pairs. The spaced pairs dominates most of the time.


Antoine is using a K&K which may sound warmer, but I'd think an Anthem would work. You just add a little to the mix to get that more direct sound. To me, the "huge" aspect of Antoine's sound comes from the pickup sound, quite a bit of compression, close micing, lowered tunings, and of course, his playing technique, which is where the "in-your-face" starts. The guitar may play a role as well. Room acoustics also plays a role. The guitar sounds more direct when it's just coming out of nowhere, with no competing noise, so room sound to trigger the cues that you're in a small room.

If I was trying to replicate his sound, I'd start by playing one of his pieces and trying to match his tone on that, so you are at least comparing apples and apples.

4 mics eh? Could I get a SIMILAR effect by double tracking? I know the 4 mics are capturing more and different sound sources but could re-EQing possibly simulate this?

I thought about getting the Trinity and I got an Anthem instead. It's worked great for me live but I think I'm going to get a trinity instead when I get a new guitar. I've done a recording with a spaced pair and the anthem. It's a loud day in my house unfortunately, there's a tennis tournament across the road and my roommates are being loud. I put blankets on my windows and a ton of stuff in front of my door, hopefully that helped a bit.

I can play one of his pieces pretty well and I can stumble through a few others. I'll try that, thanks!

Here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1ypdoqqk5ufru43/Qs6ToGe0BF


To Chris:
We sound quite similar indeed. Thank you for the story, I loved reading it.

[rick-slo]

Zach, I will repeat that the sound on your prior recording (with a little tweaking) was among the best I have heard. So consolidate,
think about what you have already done, how you did it, and avoid going off on various tangents. Right now what you need most is
to find consistency.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

4 mics eh? Could I get a SIMILAR effect by double tracking? I know the 4 mics are capturing more and different sound sources but could re-EQing possibly simulate this?

Not really, double tracking is different. That's a sure way to get a huge sound, of course, but not really done in solo fingerstyle. My 4 mic setup combines two mic patterns, and 2 very different mics. I've been using Brauner large condensers spaced, and an AEA Ribbon in MS. I can choose between them, or mix to taste. The ribbon usually produces a very deep sound, so sometimes it helps with the low end.


Just looked at your tracks. I'd say one issue here is your levels. *really* low. Peak of -24db, average -46. Shoot for around -6db peak, -20 or so average. I agree with Rick, you were getting a better sound before. What changed?

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Zach, I will repeat that the sound on your prior recording (with a little tweaking) was among the best I have heard. So consolidate,
think about what you have already done, how you did it, and avoid going off on various tangents. Right now what you need most is
to find consistency.

Just out of curiosity, what is it about the recording that sounds so good to you? I like it, I guess, when you did some tweaking it did sound great indeed (especially with the reverbs!) but it's still not the sound I'm looking for. I'm not sure what that means. Maybe I'm not necessarily looking for a realistic sound?

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Not really, double tracking is different. That's a sure way to get a huge sound, of course, but not really done in solo fingerstyle. My 4 mic setup combines two mic patterns, and 2 very different mics. I've been using Brauner large condensers spaced, and an AEA Ribbon in MS. I can choose between them, or mix to taste. The ribbon usually produces a very deep sound, so sometimes it helps with the low end.


Just looked at your tracks. I'd say one issue here is your levels. *really* low. Peak of -24db, average -46. Shoot for around -6db peak, -20 or so average. I agree with Rick, you were getting a better sound before. What changed?

Not done in solo fingerstyle eh? Any reason for this? I might be using the term "double tracking" incorrectly. I meant literally doubling the original 2 tracks and slightly re-EQing them.

A ribbon in MS eh? Hm.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Just out of curiosity, what is it about the recording that sounds so good to you? I like it, I guess, when you did some tweaking it did sound great indeed (especially with the reverbs!) but it's still not the sound I'm looking for. I'm not sure what that means. Maybe I'm not necessarily looking for a realistic sound?

Clean, good bass treble balance, good sense of space, etc.

The sound you have referred to in the past (Candyrats) may require you use a pickup(s) in your guitar. Mikes alone probably can't do it.

For example Antoine Dufour. Antoine uses the Pure pickup in his guitar

Andy McKee explaining his system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsHyhbWAjk

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Maybe I'm not necessarily looking for a realistic sound?

I'd definitely say that "huge, in-your-face" isn't a natural, realistic sound, it's an artificial bigger than natural sound :-)

Not done in solo fingerstyle eh? Any reason for this? I might be using the term "double tracking" incorrectly. I meant literally doubling the original 2 tracks and slightly re-EQing them.

Usually double-tracking refers to playing a part twice, so that's what I thought you mean. Works great for things like a rhythm guitar part on a rock track. If you just copy the track and EQ it, I suppose that could be useful, tho usually there'd be some way to achieve the same effect on the original track. When you copy a track and add it to the mix, you're automatically increasing the volume by 3db, for example, so it may seem like you created a bigger sound, but just turning up the single track by 3db will do the same thing.

A ribbon in MS eh? Hm.

Probably not what you want. A ribbon usually sounds mellow, smooth, warm. You want aggressive and in-your-face, so I'd stick with condensers. Close mic, play punchy, etc.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Clean, good bass treble balance, good sense of space, etc.

The sound you have referred to in the past (Candyrats) may require you use a pickup(s) in your guitar. Mikes alone probably can't do it.

For example Antoine Dufour. Antoine uses the Pure pickup in his guitar

Andy McKee explaining his system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsHyhbWAjk

Yeah, I probably should have gone with a K&K when I was shopping for pickups but I went with the anthem. Good marketing and reviews! I'm satisfied with it, for sure. It's great live but not the best for this purpose perhaps.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd definitely say that "huge, in-your-face" isn't a natural, realistic sound, it's an artificial bigger than natural sound :-)

Well, it's good to be able to admit and say I'm not going for a natural sound. Though I certainly would like to be good at that as well. I'll try to replicate what I did on Hallie. So. Close mic, punchy playing and condensers with a pickup? I'll play with that.

[Doug Young]

I'd try the Anthem, no reason it can't fill the role. You just record it to an additional track, and blend to taste. You may not need much of it to add some punch.