#16
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1 |
#17
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You can do this manually with most DAWs, but there are a number of plugins that just do this magically for you. The cool thing about MS is that you can adjust the relative width of the stereo image simply by how much side you bring in. Further, within reasonable limits, if you collapse to mono, you truly get mono, with no phasing issues, because Left+Right = (Mid+Side) + (Mid-Side) = Mid. In mono, the side mic simply dissappears!
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#18
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Thanks I'll research it . Kev
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#19
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Thanks for the great post, Doug.
I had actually added compression and limiting... probably a bit too much of both! Spaced pairs is a form of ORTF, right? What about dropping the mics instead of raising them? I always use my MK-012 lowered, pointing up at the guitar when there are vocals involved. Raising it would give more bleed, but also more bass. That picture shows exactly what my setup looks like. Except the mics are different (what mics are those anyway?). I use a live decoder, Waves S1 Imager. it has an M-S Matrix processing bit in it, so I can directly monitor it, or put a goniometer on it (that analyzer you showed, Reaper has something like that). I was a bit stupid, as I set the side mic (LDC) level to match the SDC when it was already rotated 90 degrees. I've got two clean recordings of the MK-012 and the M179. MK-012 M179 I think that's as close as it's gonna be with these two microphones! I will get a second MK-012 at some point though. I was told it isn't necessary to buy a matched pair, because the MK-012s appear to be consistent enough. Heck, even the matched pairs aren't matched that well (somebody told me, he has a 'matched pair'). |
#20
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If you raise them as Doug suggested and point them down toward the guitar, you should get less bleed than pointing them up toward toward your vocal. Jim McCarthy |
#21
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http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic...echniques.aspx What I'm calling "space pairs", they're calling A-B Stereo. Quote:
http://vimeo.com/4083603 Quote:
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#22
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Overall, your clips sounds mighty fine to me! Thanks!
Regards, SpruceTop
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#23
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Not to be pedantic, as if I could stop myself from pedantry, but the "sdc 12th fret ldc bridge mix to taste" is not AB stereo. In fact it's not stereo miking at all. Stereo doesn't mean "two channel" - rather it's from the Greek and means "solid" as in a solid sound field image. Stereo mic techniques attempt to capture an image of the sound field. When you start using mics and mic positions for color, miking from 6" or less, panning things around, we're not talking stereo miking.
In this case, any stereo (illusion of solid sound field) that results comes from the mixing and panning in post in spite of the mic technique, and is probably intended to sound bigger, wider, more dramatic, more intimate rather than realistic. Historically, Alan Blumlein invented two channel stereo and slammed the door on Bell Labs where researchers were experimenting with multi-mic multi-channel recording and playback systems. Blumlein sought to create a recording and playback system that would cause dialogue to follow the physical location of actors in film, and succeeded. His first stereo mic technique used figure 8s in X-Y (at right angles with coincident capsules, each 45 degrees to the source) and today we call that technique a Blumlein array. At the time, there were no high quality cardioid mics, the ribbon transducer was the most accurate technology available and the normal configuration resulted in a figure 8 mic. Blumlein also worked out the math and then the practical development of the Mid-Side array. His first system used a figure 8 mid as well as side, with a transformer to perform the sum and difference processing. Any pattern can be used for the mid mic, each one giving a different mathematical equivalent for the result. With a cardioid mid mic the M-S array is equivalent to a cardioid X-Y. In the succeeding years other engineers developed the theory and practice of stereo miking, with techniques like A B (two matched omni mics separated by a distance), ORTF, DIN, Jecklin disk, etc. http://www.microphone-data.com/pdfs/Stereo%20zoom.pdf Before digital recording, M-S matrixing always carried a penalty of some kind. Transformers have less than perfect frequency response and distortion, resistive networks and amplifiers add noise. But with digital recording the matrixing is accomplished without these impacts, leading to the next step - de-matrixing conventional stereo in order to operate on the mid and side components, then re-matrixing to get a new stereo image. This started off as a super top secret mastering trick, but now is available from your nearest free plugin download site. Did I mention that the technical side of recording is endlessly fascinating? Fran
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#24
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Of course, just to reinforce your point about close miking, with the type of close miking most fingerstyle players use these days, it's really just different variations of 2 mics that are creating the illusion of stereo by picking up different parts of the guitar. And then there are people who create "stereo" with a mic and a pickup... It's still useful to look at all the various techniques and use them as starting points, but it also helps to understand the intended use, and why sometimes they don't work all that well for close miking.
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#25
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Fran and Doug,
Thank you for your post. I'm not sure if 'proper' stereo miking would be that great for this kind of playing, but it might. I can't do that with these unmatched mics though. First I probably want to pick up another 012 and then later maybe an M179 so I can do both XY/ORTF and blumlein. But that's still a long way away. Also wanted to say that I had a massive fail ttoday, recording guitar and vocals and now I can't flick Melodyne onto the vocals to fix them... AH I hate myself now. |
#26
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Yes, thanks to all once again for taking the time to illuminate the strange and complex world of recording. Thanks, Kev.
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#27
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Well you could get wild and experimental and just max out the gtr & vocal with melodyne give em both the "Sher" effect see what it sounds like
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#28
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Indeed splitting hairs. It is pretty archaic to define and limit the use of the word "stereo" to the early Greeks use of the word . If I remember correctly microphones and recording came a couple of years later. Updating commonly understood usage of a word every few hundred years is helpful.
However if you prefer use the word "stereophonic". Pulled this definition off the internet: "ster·e·o·phon·ic –adjective pertaining to a system of sound recording or reproduction using two or more separate channels to produce a more realistic effect by capturing the spatial dimensions of a performance (the location of performers as well as their acoustic surroundings), used esp. with high-fidelity recordings and reproduction systems ( opposed to monophonic)"
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#29
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Really, with contemporary fingerstyle recording techniques, what matters is to get a good sound, no matter how you do it. It's not "real" because no one listens from 1 foot away, and no one's ears spread from the 12th fret to the bridge, even if they did get that close, but it does produce the expected sound, and if it sounds good, it is! You're getting a good sound with the new mic, keep at it! (I'd stay away from Melodyne, cool as it is :-), unless you double track and have total isolation.)
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The guitar is off the beat and the voice is off pitch. No, it wasn't me, so I can't re-do it (at least now). And Doug, you have a good point. A 'true' sound is excellent for classical guitar, but for this contemporary fingerstyle everything works. Like, Antoine Dufour's tone is from one or two mics and a pick-up that has a considerable influence on the sound. Andy McKee's recording tone is still my favorite though.
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