Recording vocals and guitar together?

[BoneDigger]

I realize that separate tracks and recorded separately is typically superior. However, in what scenario would you say recording guitar and vocals together would be preferable? I mean this either as a single mic, or mic on guitar and separate mic on vocals. As a single track or two separate tracks. Does it offer any benefits to record the singing and playing together?

[jim1960]

Some players cannot achieve the feel they want when playing separately. I had that issue at one point and I practiced singing in my head in order to create the kind of emotion with the guitar that I would have if I were singing out loud.

I can't think of any other major drawback but perhaps others place more importance on some things I haven't thought of.

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by BoneDigger

I realize that separate tracks and recorded separately is typically superior. However, in what scenario would you say recording guitar and vocals together would be preferable? I mean this either as a single mic, or mic on guitar and separate mic on vocals. As a single track or two separate tracks. Does it offer any benefits to record the singing and playing together?

Even when recording a vocal and the guitar together, two separate mics and tracks will give you more control over getting the best sound from each. You'll have more control over the volume of each and the ability to use separate effects if you want.

I'd start by pointing the vocal mic up a bit to minimize picking up the guitar and vice versa for the guitar mic. Use cardioid mics and get familiar with which areas of cardioid mics are more and less sensitive. And then plan accordingly.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by BoneDigger

I realize that separate tracks and recorded separately is typically superior. However, in what scenario would you say recording guitar and vocals together would be preferable? I mean this either as a single mic, or mic on guitar and separate mic on vocals. As a single track or two separate tracks. Does it offer any benefits to record the singing and playing together?

When recording voice & guitar together, my preferred method is to use 2 mics in figure 8 pattern, aligned so they each reject what the other is capturing. In the alternative, a figure 8 mic on the voice & a cardioid on the guitar aimed towards the fingerboard & at a slight downward angle. The latter technique was used on this video.

The biggest upside of recording rather than building a performance is knowing what you have right away. The biggest downside is that correcting mistakes with either punch-ins or edits while possible, can more difficult.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by BoneDigger

I realize that separate tracks and recorded separately is typically superior. However, in what scenario would you say recording guitar and vocals together would be preferable? I mean this either as a single mic, or mic on guitar and separate mic on vocals. As a single track or two separate tracks. Does it offer any benefits to record the singing and playing together?

First understanding there is no right or wrong only personal preference

So in reverse order,,, yes there is a slight tangible benefit (with a caveat) to recording everything at the same time. That being,,,, that is the way we play and sing naturally, so it is commonly perceived to be the easiest way to achieve a smooth natural feeling in recording ( "A performance")

The "caveat" there is two fold
#1 if you use a single mic, while phase and bleed are not an issue, but you can only process it together not separately.
#2 with only one track you will not get much width (Left to right) in the sound field..
There are some things you can do, like set up a stereo aux track with a reverb and send the audio track to it. Or there are also some plugins that simulate a stereo widening effect.

If you use two mic's into two different mono tracks , then you can process them separately, but you then have to pay attention to possible phase and bleed and you still have the left to right sound field width being narrow (unless you pan them L&R but that to me does not sound natural)

With all that in mind my preferred method for an "all at once" style recording (and what I have been doing lately) is to have a space pair of mics on the guitar (into two mono tracks L&R ) and a 3 rd mic for vocal into a 3rd mono track paned center

[FrankHudson]

Yes, the value of recording them all at once is the coordination of the vocal to the accompaniment is perfect and the player doesn't have to learn how to perform the piece in multiple passes.

As mentioned above the disadvantage is that you'll likely get some to a lot of "leakage" of the vocal into the guitar mics and almost certainly guitar leakage into the vocal mic with multiple mics, and of course with a single mic that combination comes by definition.

In lightly or unprocessed recordings this is not a big issue. Leakage can even sound good.

The biggest issue is if the player's vocal is the best it can be in every part or in the whole performance. Yes, some of us take a great deal of pride in our guitar playing, but to most listeners the vocal is by far the biggest focus. Get a "perfect" take but just a word or two on that one verse has issues? That's much harder to fix with a punch-in re-do when the "bad" vocal is also in the guitar mic tracks. And for some singers, being able to concentrate only on the vocal improves their concentration on making it work as well as possible.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

The biggest issue is if the player's vocal is the best it can be in every part or in the whole performance.

Right. So you do what they do making classical records. You record it a bunch of times and cut all the best parts together. But there's a hitch: even when you do that, there'll probably be a spot or two you're not 100% happy with in any of the takes. So ideally you'll listen back to the takes sitting or standing in place and do those little fixes right away. If you go and sit somewhere else to listen back, and go to the bathroom and grab a coffee and raid the fridge, there's a really good chance that the newer takes won't match the older ones.

[BoneDigger]

I appreciate the input folks! I am currently recording a song this way to see how it comes out. The mic bleed is a problem, but I think I can make it work.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by BoneDigger

I appreciate the input folks! I am currently recording a song this way to see how it comes out. The mic bleed is a problem, but I think I can make it work.

Hi BDigger…
I'm a singer who learned guitar to accompany myself, and I have an issue trying to record my guitar tracks stand-alone and sing vocals after the fact.

My guitar parts and vocal parts are often complex and interweave.

So I just rehearse a piece till I can perform it for the mics without flaws (at least ones anyone else would hear). Then I record. I can do multiple takes fairly quickly.

These type recordings don't lend themselves well to punch-in overdubbing, at least for me.

I'm hoping to get around to an experiment sometime to see if I can use figure 8 mics (pair of them) to place the voice in the null of the guitar mic, and the guitar in the null of voice mic.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I'm hoping to get around to an experiment sometime to see if I can use figure 8 mics (pair of them) to place the voice in the null of the guitar mic, and the guitar in the null of voice mic.

Even with figure-8 ribbon mics, which have the deepest and smoothest nulls, you probably won't eradicate bleed to the point where you can punch in on one track undetectably. But you will have really good individual control of the tracks.

[BoneDigger]

I have made a recording using this technique and will post it up in a bit. I did run into some issues, but it's not a bad recording. It's a song I wrote and wanted to record with only guitar and vocals.

[ssjk]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi BDigger…
I'm a singer who learned guitar to accompany myself, and I have an issue trying to record my guitar tracks stand-alone and sing vocals after the fact.

My guitar parts and vocal parts are often complex and interweave.

So I just rehearse a piece till I can perform it for the mics without flaws (at least ones anyone else would hear). Then I record. I can do multiple takes fairly quickly.

These type recordings don't lend themselves well to punch-in overdubbing, at least for me.

I'm hoping to get around to an experiment sometime to see if I can use figure 8 mics (pair of them) to place the voice in the null of the guitar mic, and the guitar in the null of voice mic.

Just curious. When you do multiple takes do you

1. use a click track so the timing stays consistent,
2. Listen to take 1 while doing take 2,
3. Have it down cold enough that you naturally are consistent enough from take to take

I’d be interested in any suggestions, especially if it doesn’t involve the click track.

Thanks

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by ssjk

Just curious. When you do multiple takes do you
1. use a click track so the timing stays consistent,
2. Listen to take 1 while doing take 2,
3. Have it down cold enough that you naturally are consistent enough from take to take

Typically it would be 1 or 2. Using a click definitely makes it easier to be sure the tempo is consistent and your takes will line up neatly for editing, but it does take some getting used to. Method 2 works fine if you don't have a click, but you still have to balance the playback with your live monitoring so you can hear each well enough. I have used both methods successfully.

Maybe some people are good enough to use method 3, but that would be by far the most difficult.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by ssjk

Just curious. When you do multiple takes do you

1. use a click track so the timing stays consistent,
2. Listen to take 1 while doing take 2,
3. Have it down cold enough that you naturally are consistent enough from take to take

I’d be interested in any suggestions, especially if it doesn’t involve the click track.

Thanks

Well First I recommend learn to get comfortable with a click in reality it is exactly the same as playing to a metronome was back in the day .

That said there are some work arounds like #2 But the issue with that on a recording of both guitar and vocal at the same time is , It gets a little crowded in the head phones (one trick is if your using a different tracks for each take is pull down the volume fader on the first track , so you can hear yourself better for the new take.

[BoneDigger]

Again, thanks to everyone for the comments on this thread. I appreciate all of the input.