Music Theory

[Silurian]

Thanks for all the info and advice so far guys.

Ironically, I actually know the fretboard quite well, along with a handful of scales, so It would be a shame not to
use this fundamental knowledge to greater effect.

I often use YouTube to learn new songs, and this usually works well for me. It's only if the instructor starts saying "just add the diminished 5th or added 9th here" etc, etc that I get a bit lost.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Most pop/rock/folk musicians learn most of their theory by ear. They (we!) will learn basic jargon such as note names, chord names, maybe scale and key names (that's all "theory"), but won't go any further than that. The way chords are put together - theories of harmony, chord progression, modes and all that - is learned by copying songs, picking up common practices that way.

I.e., we all learn the minimum amount of theory we need, just as we go along. And the reason we need it is to talk to other musicians: to say what we just played, to tell them what to play, or to follow what they ask us to play. We need to know things like chord names in order to follow chord charts.
Some of us may learn standard notation, especially if we want to learn songs from songbooks, or give parts to other reading musicians without having to laboriously tell them what to play.

I agree with what you have said but would add the following.

A musician integrates several different things, including technical ability, ear training and theory. It is entirely possible to learn only any one of those things. For example, one can learn where to put one's fingers to play specific chords, while having no ear training and no theory - understanding of what putting one's fingers there is/does. Similarly, one can learn music theory as a purely academic exercise, never picking up an instrument and never playing a single note.

Being a well-rounded musician involves all three of those things - as well as others. For a well-rounded musician, theory isn't learned for its own sake, but as a tool in one's making of music.

Anyone with a canvas, a tube of paint and their fingers can finger-paint. To do so, they need little in the way of technical skill (technique), or knowledge of color theory, composition, use of light/dark or other "academic" related things that are usually associated with a "well-rounded" artist. The obvious question is how does one who aspires to paint a, say, da Vinci, get from finger-painting to classical painting? Very few can do so through their own trial and error. Most do so by studying the works and techniques of those who did. That study involves several things, including "theory". Music, in this sense, is no different.

One of the most important aspects of studying what others before you have done is to introduce you to possibilities that you might not have thought of, or come upon, through your own explorations.

My theory knowledge just means I know what to call all those things! Admittedly, being able to label everything helps to build a coherent mental database. But that's just information.

One of the most important parts of labelling things is recognition. If one can identify an occurrence and label it, that becomes the basis for recognizing the same occurrence in other contexts.

As a simple example, one who knows no music theory at all, is unaware of the basic progression of I, IV, V. Once understood and aurally recognized (ear training) one can immediately recognize that pattern, that relationship of sounds in a wide variety of contexts. That can mean the difference between spending hours to figure out the correct "random" chords for the un-trained to immediate recognition in the well-trained.

[musicman1951]

How important music theory is to you depends heavily on what kind of music you play. If you only ever play a handful of cowboy chords it probably doesn't matter at all.

If you play songs that occasionally have a C (add9 or add2) it would be good to know how that differs from a C9 chord - which is quite a bit.

You want to know how chords are built, and a knowledge of major/minor scales is very helpful there. I wouldn't get too involved with modes unless you have an interest in jazz.

Knowing how to transpose, at least on paper, is a very helpful skill (unless you never sing, or have a three octave voice). That involves some knowledge of intervals and/or scales.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Silurian

Thanks for all the info and advice so far guys.

Ironically, I actually know the fretboard quite well, along with a handful of scales, so It would be a shame not to
use this fundamental knowledge to greater effect.

I often use YouTube to learn new songs, and this usually works well for me. It's only if the instructor starts saying "just add the diminished 5th or added 9th here" etc, etc that I get a bit lost.

A usefull skill which arises from an awareness of chord theory together with your knowledge of the fretboard is the ability to land on any note in a melody and know which chords can be constructed from nearby notes which contain that melody note at that fret, now most of what I do is arranging trad stuff so basic triads and a limited number of altered chords are appropriate but jazz arrangments work the same way, just more options to harmonise that melody note.

[Wild Bill Jones]

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

The thing that has been most helpful to me over the years is knowing chord theory which enables you to construct a needed chord anywhere on the neck (assuming you know where all the notes are). Got into this early on when learning 'Chet' stuff and, later, constructing jazz chord melody.

What he said.
I do find learning more about music theory interesting and have studied theory on and off for years. BTW I play mostly classic country and bluegrass. Knowing chords and notes up the neck add a lot of different and nice voicings to basic stuff. Understanding the Circle of 5ths etc adds to the experience.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Silurian

Thanks for all the info and advice so far guys.

Ironically, I actually know the fretboard quite well, along with a handful of scales, so It would be a shame not to
use this fundamental knowledge to greater effect.

I often use YouTube to learn new songs, and this usually works well for me. It's only if the instructor starts saying "just add the diminished 5th or added 9th here" etc, etc that I get a bit lost.

The most useful stuff (I think) is "CAGED" and Harmonising the Scale.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Silurian

…Ironically, I actually know the fretboard quite well, along with a handful of scales, so It would be a shame not to
use this fundamental knowledge to greater effect.

I often use YouTube to learn new songs, and this usually works well for me. It's only if the instructor starts saying "just add the diminished 5th or added 9th here" etc, etc that I get a bit lost.

Hi again Silurian

I bet there's a section of your Music Theory book that begins explaining the chords, and extending them by by scale-degree (alphanumeric numbers) instead of note names.

Theory introduces musical short-hand.

Simple song charts tend to use simple Chord symbols (Am) and add extensions like ⁷ or ⁹ (Am⁷) to add notes to a basic chord. The number is how many scale degrees in the key you are playing in the ⁷ is above the root note of the chord.

We usually memorize chords like Am7 in one or two spots on the neck and don't know how an Am7 is constructed. Same with most other chords.

They are like words we memorized as kids, without understanding their grammatical application. Theory to music is like grammar to language.

I'd look for the section of your book that explains chords, and chord building.
A good place to begin to expand your fundamental knowledge to greater effect.

[CopyCat]

I know gads of theory and think the focus/effort guitarists sometimes spend on modes etc is overdone.

Eric Skye has a simple video on practicing scales, maybe 16 minutes long, where he has you play a simple G scale starting on different notes of the scale. (i.e. A to A, B to B etc but in the key of G). There are your basic modes; he does not name them and you don’t need to know.

He does the exercise over changes to the first 8 bars of Autumn Leaves.

Theory is helpful when it’s useful. I think his approach is useful.

Here’s the link:

https://youtu.be/fU9ygo81vOc

[Andyrondack]

https://www.activemelody.com/lesson/...ng-lead-ep418/

A well explained example I think of how to put theory as it relates to chords and intervals to practical use. In this example it's a blues context but jazz would be just the same with more complex progressions and more target notes to choose from.

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by Silurian

...The downside is that I know next to nothing about music theory. I've felt this increasingly limiting.

I've played keyboards for about 65 years and guitar for 55. I've had a few years of piano lessons, which is really the way to learn fundamental theory. But what the hell IS music theory anyway?

"Music theory, very simply, could be defined as a search for how and why music sounds right or wrong."

You know your basic chords, right? Some chords go well together and some don't. Chord structure, composition, that's theory IMO. How many songs (well, in the 60s anyway) just used 1-6m-4-5? If you can play 12-bar blues, you can play with anybody. Why is that structure so seemingly eternal? Why does the dominant (5) always want to lead back to the tonic (1)? That's theory.

[hatamoto]

I think a basic understanding of how music works is important. I used to just play and copy others but hated the fact that I didn't understand what's going on so it was a big, big crutch.

The more I learn about music theory, the less I look at things in a guitar-centric way. I just see it as music. In fact, my view of the guitar is slowly changing to how I might see it as piano keys and everything is becoming much more clear over time. The guitar is just an instrument used to express musical ideas.

Today I just learned about suspended movements and how they are used in cinematic music. In the past, I just know that there are sus chords and while they sound good, I had no idea how to use it. I saw some examples of a 4-3 suspension movements so I now have a clearer idea of how to use these chords for that powerful feel.

So in short, yes I think learning theory is a must to understand what's going on, then it's up to your creativity to see past it and bend some rules.

[UKPhil]

For me playing guitar is all about enjoying it. If you find learning some theory enhances your playing and you enjoy doing it then go for it. However, if you find learning theory doesn't tick those boxes then don't bother. Life is too short........

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by UKPhil

For me playing guitar is all about enjoying it. If you find learning some theory enhances your playing and you enjoy doing it then go for it. However, if you find learning theory doesn't tick those boxes then don't bother. Life is too short........

Well said.

[Robin, Wales]

I am going to say that a lot of a person’s interest in music theory is going to depend upon their preferred learning style. If your “go to” place to when learning something new is theoretical (and a lot of people have this preference) then music theory will hold more initial “value” to you than someone who is more prone to be activist or pragmatic or reflective in their approach.

To learn something fully, and quickly to a certain extent, we need to step out of our preferred learning style and do the things that are not “natural” for us. To put it bluntly, we must struggle and be a little uncomfortable. The hardest folks to teach are those who are stuck in their primary preference. They also make the worst teachers!

I have a theorist preference. But I do consciously explore being more activist, pragmatic, and reflective when learning. And, as I get older, I am enjoying the process of “learning by doing” first and then hanging a theory on it after having something concreate and experiential to hang that theory on. I know that I have not really learned something until it is in the muscle and produces a practical result.

Music theory came to life for me when I was studying old Appalachian dulcimers. I wanted to find out how the early players worked with the instruments – and there are very few field recordings. So I bought old traditional dulcimers as they came up for sale (no one wants them so they are cheap!) and now have quite a collection of historically significant instruments. Having these instruments on my lap, along with early writings by Appalachian travellers, enabled me to work out how they were set-up tuned and played – and the results were quite different from the “story” that was generally circulating. To understand the instruments, I had to learn about modes, temperaments, and intervals. And to play them I needed to read simple SMN.

In conclusion I would say that music theory should inform music practice and music practice should inform music theory.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by UKPhil

For me playing guitar is all about enjoying it. If you find learning some theory enhances your playing and you enjoy doing it then go for it. However, if you find learning theory doesn't tick those boxes then don't bother. Life is too short........

Absolutely! You can say the same thing about learning anything.