Mandolin tuners.... ugh. I hate these things.

[DissonantTimbre]

I have a Kentucky KM-505 A style mandolin. I payed about $500 for it a little over a year ago. It's a fantastic budget model Mandolin that plays well when in tune.

Beautiful flame maple, beautiful headstock inlay work, great fret work, and the binding is some of the cleanest I've ever seen on an instrument at this price point.

The tuners are junk. The buttons are cracking and will probably fall off at some point. The gear ratio seem to be really crappy because I constantly have problems with slippage. The tuners are gold with vintage white buttons. These are advertised as "high quality gotoh tuners."

Did I go wrong? Should I have purchased a more expensive mandolin as a beginner? Can I replace these tuners and if so what kind would be recommended?

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by DissonantTimbre

I have a Kentucky KM-505 A style mandolin. I payed about $500 for it a little over a year ago. <>
The tuners are junk. The buttons are cracking and will probably fall off at some point. The gear ratio seem to be really crappy because I constantly have problems with slippage. The tuners are gold with vintage white buttons. These are advertised as "high quality gotoh tuners."

Do they look like this?

http://www.lmii.com/products/kit-wiz...andolin-tuners

Yes, mandolin tuners can be replaced. Price for Gotohs will be pretty much as shown in the link. Here are some non-Gotohs:

http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_...ning_Machines/

The buttons absolutely should not be cracking, by the way.

[posternutbag]

Mandolin tuners are inefficient. They slip. You can turn them several times and not change the pitch at all, and then one small one eighth turn causes a giant change in pitch. I play a Dudenbostel, I am thinking about upgrading the tuners. The thing is, Gotoh, Grover, Golden Age, none of them are really much better. Until you get all the way up to Waverly’s or even Alessi, there isn’t that much difference. So, on the one hand, you can swap out mandolin tuners, but to get significantly better tuners, you will have to spend as much on the tuners as you did on the mandolin. It’s a running joke in the mandolin world, you spend half your time tuning, and the other half playing out of tune.

[svea]

When you get a new mandolin, I would suggest spending a little time lubricating the tuners. Use a toothpick and dab any kind of good lubricating oil on all the little places that rub. That will at least extend their life.

Tuners aside, mandolins are wonderful!

Svea

[David Eastwood]

Tuners don’t slip. It’s just about physically impossible for a worm/pinion combination to ‘slip’. Tuning instability is almost always due to instability elsewhere - nut friction or poor string installation, for example.

[Rudy4]

I've used Schallers on my A and F builds and have no complaint with them.

http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-...andolin-tuners

[fazool]

Originally Posted by DissonantTimbre

...The gear ratio seem to be really crappy because I constantly have problems with slippage. ...

Gear ratio has nothing to do with slippage.

The only thing gear ratio will affect is how smoothly you can move the gears and how precisely you can adjust them.

Non-defective tuning machines have almost "nothing" to do with staying in tune. That's almost entirely an issue of the string being wrapped/installed on the post.

[Big Band Guitar]

Every string change I lube all moving parts with a tiny drop of clock oil and number 2 pencil in the nut slots. That takes care of almost all of tuning issues.

I also remove any excess oil with a microfiber cleaning cloth.

[Wade Hampton]

Gotoh makes two different grades of mandolin tuners. The better quality tuners have removable buttons, while the cheaper grade gears do not.

The better quality Gotoh mandolin tuners are very good, while the cheapos are pretty crappy and we’re the source of endless frustration for me. (Full disclosure: I worked with Gotoh developing the better quality mando gears.). So not all Gotoh mandolin gears are created equal.


whm

[Br1ck]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Tuners don’t slip. It’s just about physically impossible for a worm/pinion combination to ‘slip’. Tuning instability is almost always due to instability elsewhere - nut friction or poor string installation, for example.

This is correct.

Now to your other question. Mandolins are roughly twice as expensive as guitars of the same quality. F styles add nothing to the sonic presentation of the mandolin, but add significantly to the cost. Being a beginner should have no effect on what you buy. Whatever the instrument, you should buy the best you can afford. Your tuning issues are most probably related to the nut. Mandolins are notorious for needing a good setup. Many guitar techs are clueless when it comes to mandolins.

Now, the import mandolin makers know how much inlay and shiny sells mandolins. Kentucky is one of the better regarded pac rim companies, and their 900 and above Master series mandolins are pretty darn good. But as you progress, and hopefully you get the chance to visit a dealer who stocks the likes of Weber, Collings, Pava, et all, you will realize your mandolin's shortcomings. And beware of trying the rarefied atmosphere of Dudenbostel, Ellis, Heiden, and Gilchrist. Oh my.

But back to reality. The cheapest Collings F style, the MF, is a satin finished, top bound only, plain Jane of a mandolin. All it does is provide a wonderful playing experience for your $4500. Same for the Gibson F9. Want double binding, neck and headstock binding and gloss finish and maybe a flowerpot inlay? Try $8000 on for size.

Now you can ditch the scroll, and buy a very nice used A style small shop mandolin for $1200 or more. Sometimes way more, but there are a lot of very nice used mandolins around $1500.

Get the free eBook mandolin set up guide from Rob Meldrum, and start saving.

My $1200 Silverangel was a huge upgrade over my Eastman 505.

[DissonantTimbre]

Originally Posted by fazool

Gear ratio has nothing to do with slippage.

The only thing gear ratio will affect is how smoothly you can move the gears and how precisely you can adjust them.

Non-defective tuning machines have almost "nothing" to do with staying in tune. That's almost entirely an issue of the string being wrapped/installed on the post.

I misspoke it's not slippage per say but just that the slightest adjustments overshoot the correct pitch when trying to tune and its extremely frustrating. I use the PRS method of string locking when wrapping the strings so that the string locks itself in place when the first winding comes around the tuner post.
https://forums.prsguitars.com/thread...g-tuners.4838/

[LookerBob]

Heh, let's not call that the 'PRS method', that's been the preferred method of tons of folks for longer than PRS has been around.

To me it sounds like binding in the nut - I would recommend, as others have, getting a very thin mechanical pencil that'll get in the high E slot, and put a little graphite in all of the slots before tuning to help lubricate.

Also ensure that when you put strings on, you are stretching each one - stretch the string, tune to pitch, stretch again, tune to pitch, repeat until they don't detune when you stretch.

Always tune 'up' to a pitch, as you can get slack in the string if you try to tune down to the pitch, and then once you start playing it'll detune further and put you out of tune. Miss and go too far? Relax the string down below the note again and come up at it.