I feel like I know absolutely nothing

[jseth]

"The Basics" of Modern Diatonic Theory would help... you don't have to go extra deep with it, but with the basics under my belt, I can easily understand "why?" the songs I like sound the way they do, and I can easily follow where they're going, most times before they even go there!

Knowing a bit about theory, especially how the chords "fit" within the standard major scale (which you already know, right? Do re mi fa sol la ti do...) is helpful for me when writing songs, or learning new songs to play and sing...

Just having the C, D, E, G, and A major chord scales learned would do a whole lot for both your understanding, enjoyment and ease of moving between one song and the other...

[Blueser100]

Originally Posted by Muffinhead

I have been reading a thread here about memorizing notes in each key and I am seeing terms and phrases that are completely foreign to me. Modes, intervals, fret positions, dorian, tonic, and on and on. I have no idea what any of that means.

For the most part I only play as accompaniment to my singing. I have never played any instrumental music on my guitar, but I do not consider instrumental fingerstyle playing out of the question.

My question is this, considering what I currently play, fingerpicking chords for accompaniment to singing, how much of that stuff would actually be helpful to me at some point, and why?

I know quite a bit about music theory and its terms, and I understand it pretty well. It does come in handy when I am trying to learn something by ear. But other than that, I just mainly want to learn songs I love and be able to play them somewhat decently for my own and my family's entertainment. I don't really need to memorize the fretboard to do that.

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Music theory is essentially a verbal language to enable us to talk about music - to describe what we're hearing (and playing) with other musicians.
Because to gives precise names to every element of music (within reason... in western music....) it means we can build larger concepts and structures, spot connections, identify common practices, learn (and teach) about music in greater depth with less confusion. (Yup, less confusion, IF we get all the terms right. That's a big "if" )

There's a couple of metaphors I like that might help.

Music theory is a MAP of a city you're visiting In fact, it's a city you're already living in, although not one you're very familiar with at the moment. As you are now, you are finding your way round your local neighbourhood with no problem. When you first moved here (first picked up a guitar) you were a little lost, no doubt, but you're OK now, within the few streets where you live your life.

A map of your local area would show you all those streets laid out, and it would name them all. Probably you'd recognise some of those names (things like "E", G7, "Am" ), but there'll be others that are strange to you - not because you don't know those streets or places, but because you just never knew what they were called before - that didn't matter, because you only used them to get where you wanted to go. (Maybe the street names are in a foreign language anyway .)
You don't need to know the name of a street as long as you know where it goes! But supposing someone asked you directions? If you didn't know the street name, it would make it harder to explain it to them.

Even so, as long as you don't need to travel around the city too much - or don't need to talk to anyone about where you've been, or ask about how to get to some new place, or to give anyone else directions - then you're fine as you are. You may feel excluded from the wider community of city dwellers (especially those who've been there some time, who seem to run things), but as long as your own life is not inhibited, then you don't need that map.

Even if you do want to explore other areas of the city (ie play other kinds of music, develop improvisation or composition skills), then you can do that just by walking around. No one is going to stop you and demand to see your map! Without the map, it will take you longer to form a picture in your mind of the street layout, and if you can't name any of the places, you may have trouble organising the place in your mind. (Of course you can give them your own names if you like. But again, watch out for when you need to ask or give directions.) But still, plenty of other people get around the city in just that way: ignorant of most place names, but still getting their business done and feeling fully at home.

An alternative metaphor is the RECIPE BOOK. You're no professional chef; but you can prepare your own meals well enough. They're not very varied or complicated, but you do just fine. You know the names of most of the ingredients, and those you don't know you can't just point at them in the shop when you buy them. Or you recognise the tin and can just pick it off the shelf.
Of course, you don't know what nutrients any of the ingredients contain. You just know they taste OK, and you're reasonably healthy, so they must be OK.
Knowing theory is like having a recipe book. You would find there are dozens, maybe 100s of recipes in there. You already know a handful. no more than that. You'd find yourself reading one of those recipes and saying to yourself - wait a minute I know what this is! I can already make this one!
Question is: do you really need the book? Obviously not to help you make the meals you already can. Are you interested enough in all those other recipes to want to investigate more? To open up your meal choices? Do the pictures look mouth-watering? Or do they just look weird?
To extend the metaphor: maybe you run a small cafe. Your audience is the customers. Your little cafe does just fine serving ham and eggs or burger and fries. Your customers seem satisfied - maybe it's great ham and eggs! But maybe you're bored? You want to expand? You see that cafe down the road getting a load of cool customers? Can you learn to do what they're doing? Of course you can - you can visIt their cafe and observe what they do, and copy anything that takes your fancy. If you ask them what they are doing, they'll be happy tell you - but they'll probably use words you don't understand. So - you can get that recipe book. Everyone uses the same recipe book! (They just pick out the dishes they like.) There'll still be words in there you don't quite understand. But if you work from the ones you do know, it will slowly begin to make sense.

OK, I'm done. Hopefully you get the (excessively laboured) point!
Music theory is "common practices": it's not rules you have to follow, just descriptions of the way music is (the city map) and the kinds of things that have been found to work reliably in the past (the recipe book).
As I say, you can find out all you need to about those things without that kind of assistance.

Ignorance of theory won't stop you doing anything you want in music. It might sometimes slow you down, make communication more difficult. But if your ear is good (like your sense of direction in a city, or your sense of taste as a cook), you can do very well with no theory knowledge at all.

Wow!! I like your rather long winded explanation. And despite me using that term (long winded) I mean it as no insult or with no derision. Over 50+ years of guitar playing I've had more than a few teachers. I still periodically take lessons with different teachers to expand my knowledge, my styles, my approach and get fresh perceptions. When working on a new song and learning and trying to come up with something interesting in an arrangement, my most recent teacher would suggest something to try to get me to insert a little color into a song. He'd give me a little hint. I'd say, "what did you just do and how did you do it?" When I finally figured it out we'd giggle and say "geography!" "Geography of the fretboard."

And of course some very good song writers did not know how to even read music. Included are John Denver, Tommy Emmanuel, Jerry Reed and a whole lot of well known guitarists, singers, songwriters including many I believe in the long list of well known names a previous poster listed as some of his favorite.

The aforementioned guitar teacher I had also drilled me in a whole bunch of scales and modes. Pentatonic, Dorian, Mixolian, and quite a few I never had even heard of before.... blah, blah, blah, etc., etc. Finally in exacerbated frustration I finally said, "I simply can't remember all this!" He laughed (at my expense) and said,"of course not, few if anyone can." "The point of these exercises is so you know they exist, the variety of tone or feeling they can lend a song if you find the right one. You can use the internet or all these notes I've given you and I've developed over the years as reference. It's a remarkable age and the internet can be a wonderful help as can a public library."

He was a very very good guitar player and very knowledgeable. He also told me it was his view and impression that it was entertainment to go to GC or any guitar retailer and sit and listen to some (usually) young shredders come in, run a bunch of scales over and over again (often loudly), talk loudly enough and with seeming authority about various scales and modes seemingly to impress people around them. He said, often enough these fellows were in error or at least had restricted knowledge of what they were talking about. One day for diversion we went on a road trip to a GC. Sure enough. There they were, just like he said. Anyway, I digress in my long winded and belabored post. Thank you for sharing your interpretation using the analogies or metaphors of maps and recipes.

[Muffinhead]

Originally Posted by jseth

Knowing a bit about theory, especially how the chords "fit" within the standard major scale (which you already know, right? Do re mi fa sol la ti do...) is helpful for me when writing songs, or learning new songs to play and sing...

This is what I am talking about, I have no idea what you mean by that. What do you mean by how chords fit within a major scale? All I do is look at the chart and play the chords that are there above the lyrics. I know a lot of chords beyond the A, C, F, G, D, Am, Bm, Em, A7, C7, D7 and so on, but when I use an Fmaj7 or a Dsus4 or a C2 why does that chord fit within the song?

I am now playing with the band at my church and sometimes I get into a situation where I have learned a song for Sunday service in the key of G and then they decide to change it and do it in Eb. At that point I am stymied because Eb is not what I practiced and I don't know what to do. Apparently the keyboardist can hit a transpose button or something and instantly transpose to another key. It is not so easy for me to instantly transpose.

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by stanron

It seems to me that what you are talking about here is, in part, a product of Universities running degree courses in Popular Music.

In the old days all you had to do was keep playing long enough, with as many different people as possible, and you would learn all you needed to know. OK for some genres you had to learn to read but for others you didn't. There were no 'qualifications'. Imagination was a prime asset.

When universities started teaching popular music courses, the basic theory needed to read music was frequently a pre-requisite, as was competency of playing or singing. As a result they had to find, or invent, areas of complexity to keep capable students occupied for three years.

Jazz keyboard harmony was one such area and modes another. Practical application of the theory of these into the student's playing was another again.

There is a danger that none of this has or had immediate value in preparing students for a life of performing commercially. Being able to improvise in any specific mode is not much use if you want to earn a living in music.

Worse is the fact that students are paying to learn and there is pressure to conform and agree or not get your degree. Further from 'rock 'n roll' you could not get. If your imagination or originality prevents you from conforming or agreeing you loose a lot of money and don't get your qualification.

OK. I admit to being an old fogey. The 'the modern world is going to hell in a hand basket' is my default position on a range of other subjects as well as this but I was learning my music in front of audiences in the 1960s. It was a wild, exciting, sometimes astonishing time. There were no qualifications in popular music but it didn't stop an enormous explosion of talent and originality across a range of genres.

For the last fifteen years before I retired I taught in a college that prepared students for University popular music courses. I often wondered if the ones who didn't get accepted actually got the better deal.

To the OP. Don't get hung up on the vocabulary. An online dictionary can be a useful tool. A lot of the postings on modes and other theory are a result of NOT understanding the subject. Theory helps you talk about music, it might help you think about music but if you are thinking about theory when you are playing, I don't think you are doing it right. Just keep on playing.

This too!! My degree is not in music, but I've had a lifelong interest and focus on music. What dismays me a little is what I've heard too many young people say who have graduated with a music degree. They've said, "it's all about stage presence." To which I reply, "Oh really? What about the music? I thought your degree was in music, not stage presence."

[jfitz81]

Originally Posted by Muffinhead

This is what I am talking about, I have no idea what you mean by that. What do you mean by how chords fit within a major scale? All I do is look at the chart and play the chords that are there above the lyrics. I know a lot of chords beyond the A, C, F, G, D, Am, Bm, Em, A7, C7, D7 and so on, but when I use an Fmaj7 or a Dsus4 or a C2 why does that chord fit within the song?

There are others on this forum who know lots more than me, but the short version is that learning the major scale (for any given key) will get you a long way. I don't mean memorizing the notes, but just the intervals: whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, half. The chords that "fit" within a major scale are those that are built entirely from notes within the scale. In the key of G, for example, those chords include G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, and F#dim. All of those chords are built entirely from the seven notes in the G-major scale.

Knowing those intervals also makes it easy to transpose: if a song in G consists of G, C, and D chords, think about them as intervals rather than notes: G is the root (I) because the song's in the key of G. C is the fourth note (IV) of the G-major scale, and D is the fifth note (V) of the G-major scale. To transpose to Eb, just use the Eb scale instead: Eb is the I, Ab is the IV (fourth note of the Eb-major scale), and Bb is the V (fifth note of the Eb major scale).

[MC5C]

You might like to learn about the Nashville chord system, AKA thge Nashville number system. It is so simple, it just assigns a number to each note in the scale, and the chord chart for a song uses those number instead of the note names. I, IV, V7, IIm, etc. Lets you transpose easily once you get used to it. Doesn't help with a good way to play in Eb if you are an open chord kind of guy... Or just capo on the fourth fret and carry on...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_number_system

Brian

[brad2001]

Muffin, I've played guitar 30 years in much the same manner as you, the instrument compliments my singing. As such, I'm now learning piano, professionally instructed, whereas my guitar is self taught. Learning music theory has increased my understanding of music 100 fold, but it's not making me a better guitar player. Piano player yes, as there are an infinite number of arrangements for me at a keyboard whereas my guitar playing ability is determined by my need, described as simply for accompanyment of voice. I recommend learning theory to anyone.

_____________________
1999 Gibson Dove
1996 Guild A25-NT-HR
1966 Fender Coronado I mod
Kawai MP10

[funkapus]

Originally Posted by Muffinhead

This is what I am talking about, I have no idea what you mean by that. What do you mean by how chords fit within a major scale? All I do is look at the chart and play the chords that are there above the lyrics. I know a lot of chords beyond the A, C, F, G, D, Am, Bm, Em, A7, C7, D7 and so on, but when I use an Fmaj7 or a Dsus4 or a C2 why does that chord fit within the song?

I am now playing with the band at my church and sometimes I get into a situation where I have learned a song for Sunday service in the key of G and then they decide to change it and do it in Eb. At that point I am stymied because Eb is not what I practiced and I don't know what to do. Apparently the keyboardist can hit a transpose button or something and instantly transpose to another key. It is not so easy for me to instantly transpose.

Well, you could put a capo behind the 8th fret, continue to play the same chord shapes you'd play in the key of G, and you'd be playing in the key of Eb. If you don't see that that's true, I recommend taking the time to learn about how to use a capo. But if you want to know *why the capo works the way it works*, theory helps with that.

I do think there are some basic aspects of theory that are very, very valuable. Transposing key is going to come up if you play with other people, especially singers. The capo helps in that regard; but maybe you don't like the sound of the chords played way up the neck, and so would prefer to capo nearer the nut or not use a capo at all. Also, if you play enough with other people, sooner or later you're going to have the opportunity to play with them on a song you don't know; but if they tell you the song is in the key of D, you stand a halfway-decent chance of faking your way through the song with the chords D, G and A. Theory helps you know which chords are likely to appear in a song. Yes, you can learn this stuff purely by exposure to it while playing a lot -- but from my experience, learning to transpose key and developing the ability to fake your way through songs comes much more slowly when learned divorced from theory, and some things will need to be relearned multiple times until they stick. As a fantastic instructor I once had said, "I found that without any theory at all, I had to repeatedly learn the same things over and over."

But even if I think it's tremendously useful to learn a little bit of theory, that does *not* mean you have to go hog wild with it. There is value in knowing how to change the oil in your car, even if you don't know how to rebuild an engine.

Learning the names of the 12 notes and their order; the major scale; and the Roman numeral/Nashville number system is the theory I'd recommend, at least to start. At that point, transposing key and using the capo effectively should be available to you; and you'll be better able to guess what chords you're going to need when someone tells you this next song (which you don't know) is in the key of A.

[Muffinhead]

Originally Posted by MC5C

You might like to learn about the Nashville chord system, AKA thge Nashville number system. It is so simple, it just assigns a number to each note in the scale, and the chord chart for a song uses those number instead of the note names. I, IV, V7, IIm, etc. Lets you transpose easily once you get used to it. Doesn't help with a good way to play in Eb if you are an open chord kind of guy... Or just capo on the fourth fret and carry on...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_number_system

Brian

I guess that is why I hear the keyboardist saying one, five, four, one in our earphones when he is playing a light chord progression behind the pastor while the pastor is speaking. Now I know what those numbers must mean.

Cool, I have learned something already.

[polarred21]

Originally Posted by Muffinhead

I guess that is why I hear the keyboardist saying one, five, four, one in our earphones when he is playing a light chord progression behind the pastor while the pastor is speaking. Now I know what those numbers must mean.

Cool, I have learned something already.

This Intro to Music Theory will help you greatly with the questions you are asking, helped me a lot.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=424051

[polarred21]

Originally Posted by Muffinhead

key of G and then they decide to change it and do it in Eb. ......Apparently the keyboardist can hit a transpose button or something and instantly transpose to another key. It is not so easy for me to instantly transpose.

I am just learning the very beginning of this as well so I am clearly not an expert. This website wants money but here is an example (for free) of how to go from the key of G to Eb.

Note the key change options on the lower right and watch how the notes move up and down the staff as well as the chord changes you speak of. There is also a play button in the upper right. Select G then Eb.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic...?ppn=MN0062745