ToneDexter - The Holy Grail!

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Please check if your Lehle is 2 in 1 out or 1 in and 2 out.
Some of this boxes can be used in both direction but I think not the Lehle.
What is the correct name of your Lehle?

The manual says that it will work. Going to buy a 6’ 1/4 TRS to Dual Mini cable right now.

[Peter Z]

Great! Let me know how it works.

[jojobean39]

Quick question:

I ordered one today. I have been watching reviews on this and I was curious about listening back to the sound. I see headphones are recommended.

Any idea on which would be preferred... studio headphones or nice IEMs? I have a decent pair of the Sony studio headphones. But I have a really high quality set of JH Audio IEMs with 12 drivers.

Is there a thought process on which is best for listening back?

[Peter Z]

I'd prefer studio headphones but there is no reason why IEMs shouldn't work.

The wavemapped signal through the ToneDexter will sound different to the mic signal anyway.

Beside of this at the end you have to listen back through your amp or PA, (and through your monitor) because that's the sound you will use.

Headphones of any type will give a quite poor representation of the sound through your speakers. They are very helpful during the process of creating the wavemaps to get a relative (not absolute) information of what you're doing. I.e. 'More bass', 'more direct', 'more highs' or so. You can judge this with most headphones, even cheaper ones.

You need to create some wavemaps to get an impression. There's a learning curve.

[jojobean39]

Thanks for the advice. I guess that makes a lot of sense. My IEMs are my sole source of sound when I play. But I really need to see what it sounds like through the PA I guess.

I’m so excited. I got a great deal on an open box item/return from Shoreline Music.

[stevo58]

Well, I was looking for a second source to add to my 12-string to get rid of the banjo-like amplified tone when I stumbled on this thread. I picked up my Dexter last Friday.

I have an OM-21 with a soundboard pickup which always sounded pretty good amplified (I usually go straight through our PA, and use an ACUS as a monitor), but the DX12 just sounded awful awful awful. I recently ripped out the Sonitone, installed a K&K, and cut a new bone saddle for it, and the amplified tone was less awful, but still not acceptable to me. I was about to add a second-source microphone when I read this.

The OM-21 records wonderfully, and I created wavemaps for it using the same mic I use to record it, a Haun MBC660 (Haun is a small German manufacturer). Once I got over the idea I was secretly harboring that it would sound just like it does through the microphone, and accepted that it will "just" be far better than before, I experimented with mic placements and got some good results.

But the real challenge for me is the 12-string. On this guitar I'm getting best results (so far) with an AKG C414ULS, which has restrained high-end, which works better with the thin, high sound of the DX12. It is certainly already far better than what I was getting with the Sonitone, but this isn't a high-end guitar and there are limits, I think, to what is possible. In any case, it's a big improvement. I haven't gigged with the Tonedexter yet, but will soon.

One thing I particularly like is the notch filter. My OM is a very 'live' guitar; it is lightly built and feeds back easily. With the Dexter, I could set the ACUS directly next to me, turn it up until feedback started, quickly dial it out with the notch, and then turn up much louder. Previously I used a Baggs Para Acoustic DI, and it required a bit of fiddling with the parametric EQ to suppress the feedback. So the notch filter on the Dexter is a win for me.

All in all, my initial response is that the Tonedexter is a huge improvement. It doesn't get your internal pickup to sound like a good small condenser, but it gets it close enough that it doesn't really matter for live use.

My only beef: the power adapter, although it will adjust to EU voltage, has a fixed US plug. So I have to use an adapter. Another thing to get lost.

steven

[gfirob]

I think having good headsets (like the $80 Sony MDR7506) is probably a fairly important (though not essential) part of the Tonedexter process since you end up trying out different microphones and mike positions and the differences can be fairly subtle sometimes. The it is very true that the real test is how it sounds coming out of the amp or PA and that can sound quite different depending on the individual amp and the room (as is true of pickups by themselves).

My experience too is that the wavemap never sounds exactly like the microphone by itself, but it is so close and so much better than the untreated pickup that it doesn't matter. Whether you make a couple of attempts to come up with a successful wavemap, or experiment over hours and multiple microphones (depending on your personality) most people will come out of the experience with an amplified sound far truer to the guitar than the amplified pickup IMHO.

[guitaniac]

I think the pickup makes a difference with ToneDexter as well (as the choice of training mic). I recently swapped out the Barbera Soloist in one of my guitars for a DTAR Wavelength system. I immediately found it easier to get a good sounding WaveMap, despite the fact that I had been using the recommended protocol for training the Soloist.

I've also experimented with using ToneDexter with a MiniFlex 2Mic. The good news is that it compensates nicely for the 2Mic's overly boomy (in the low mids) sound. The bad news is that it still sounds like a mic inside a guitar. TD doesn't seem to be able to eliminate that factor. I've also noticed the same thing with recordings of a Dexterized Baggs Lyric signal. I suspect that's why I've heard of two instances where a TD user has swapped out the Lyric in his guitar for a K&K Pure Mini.

[Songtown]

Originally Posted by gfirob

I think having good headsets (like the $80 Sony MDR7506) is probably a fairly important (though not essential) part of the Tonedexter process since you end up trying out different microphones and mike positions and the differences can be fairly subtle sometimes. The it is very true that the real test is how it sounds coming out of the amp or PA and that can sound quite different depending on the individual amp and the room (as is true of pickups by themselves).



My experience too is that the wavemap never sounds exactly like the microphone by itself, but it is so close and so much better than the untreated pickup that it doesn't matter. Whether you make a couple of attempts to come up with a successful wavemap, or experiment over hours and multiple microphones (depending on your personality) most people will come out of the experience with an amplified sound far truer to the guitar than the amplified pickup IMHO.

Yeah, good point! I was not expecting microphone perfection. I just wanted to get rid of the awful piezo quack and have my guitar sound more like my guitar. The end result was very close in my opinion but not exact. Way better sound than any pickup / internal mic / preamp I have ever heard. Not sure if it matters but I played some of the stuff I typically play with both high and low frequency parts mixed in when training. My first model was so good I quit right there. I am sure I could have created different tones with more experimentation but I was a happy camper and ready to roll. Now to see how my Emerald X20 likes the TD.

[jojobean39]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I think the pickup makes a difference with ToneDexter as well (as the choice of training mic). I recently swapped out the Barbera Soloist in one of my guitars for a DTAR Wavelength system. I immediately found it easier to get a good sounding WaveMap, despite the fact that I had been using the recommended protocol for training the Soloist.

I've also experimented with using ToneDexter with a MiniFlex 2Mic. The good news is that it compensates nicely for the 2Mic's overly boomy (in the low mids) sound. The bad news is that it still sounds like a mic inside a guitar. TD doesn't seem to be able to eliminate that factor. I've also noticed the same thing with recordings of a Dexterized Baggs Lyric signal. I suspect that's why I've heard of two instances where a TD user has swapped out the Lyric in his guitar for a K&K Pure Mini.

That's interesting about the MiniFlex 2. My Flammang has that set up and it sounds lovely when finger picked. But when strummed in a band setting... That's a little boomy, as you say.

That's going to be interesting to see how it works with that.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I've also experimented with using ToneDexter with a MiniFlex 2Mic. The good news is that it compensates nicely for the 2Mic's overly boomy (in the low mids) sound. The bad news is that it still sounds like a mic inside a guitar. TD doesn't seem to be able to eliminate that factor.

I also tried "training" my internal mic (not a miniflex, DPA or Audix), without much success.

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Great! Let me know how it works.

I’m having some trouble. I got a 1/4” TRS to dual 1/4” mono cable. If I plug it in all the way, I get no sound. If I pull it out a little, I get the internal mic signal from the Guitar only. If I pull a little more, I get the piezo only.

I have the internal switch on the pickup set to stereo. I don’t remember changing the end pin jack on this guitar, but it’s possible. I’ll try my other guitar later. That has a brand new pickup installed.

[Peter Z]

Really sorry to read this, Kid.
To me it seems the end pin is ok since it can deliver both the mic and the pickup signal seperatly. The only thing I can imagine if the jack is soldered in a wrong way.
I don't know your preamp but I imagine the mic and pickup signal should be connected to tip and ring and there should be a common ground cable to the sleeve.

Or there is something wrong with the cable.
Do you have an ohmmeter to check the cable?
Tip and ring on the TRS should be connected to the tips of the 2 TS. And the sleeve should go to both of the sleeves of the TS.

You can also test the cable with insert points on your mixer. There are main inserts on your A&H mixer. Plug the cable (TRS end) into the left or right insert and take any of your fx pedals or the looper on the other side of your cable. Maybe you have to try which is the send (fx input) and which is the return (fx output).
If you can hear the fx or loop the cable should be ok.

There must be a way. Don't give up.

[The Kid!]

I was going to just use the pickup in mono and put the TD in the lehle loop when I realized that I can just hit the bypass on the TD when I use the guitar inner mic like I’ve been doing and keep things simple.

I can use the pickup controls on the guitar to turn the microphone on and off. I’ve been doing it this way for years, so I think I’m going to stick with it. Adding another paddle just to bypass the tone Dexter seems like more work than I need to be doing

[The Kid!]

I’m not going to reconfigure anything either. I have two identical boards, and I will just put the tonedexter on the floor next to each one. It’ll make things much simpler for me