Hearing the glitches *before* the talent leaves

[Chipotle]

When you are recording someone else in a time-limited setting, how do you make sure you catch all the flubs before the talent leaves?

The brain can gloss over or miss mistakes in real time, so sometimes a mistake isn't obvious until you listen back. Often you'd have time to do a quick punch-in if you caught it right away, but you're out of luck if you don't.

Do you just buy the talent pizza while you do a listen-back anyway? Train your brain to better hear a buzz or off note or off timing even though you're trying to engineer at the same time? Do 3 extra takes of everything just in case?

Do any of you with experience recording others have any tips for how you can do the best at making sure you hear & note any clams before the session is over?

(And yes, in my case the train has already left the station, but I want to do better next time! I was recording a HS choir and have a few really rough spots on one piece.)

[jim1960]

I'd want multiple takes of everything so if something is off somewhere, I can grab the same part from a different take. And it probably helps to have Melodyne in your tool bag.

[KevWind]

Fortunate for me I only record my self and am always available for a redo :

Seriously though I understand the conundrum recording others does present.
And I have run into this glitch issue a few times in my One Full Pass Video method where even though I record several takes I may have a different glitch in different places in all 3 takes say, and while audio wise I can just comp together a decent pass,, Video wise It almost always presents a visual glitch problem

Or
More than once I have been well into mixing and often (even after getting completely away from it for hours or even a day or two ) Only to find some unfixable fopaw and have had to re-record

Or I try to record mix master and upload to YouTube all in one day , only to find something I do not like that becomes more apparent when YouTube does its audio compression

[runamuck]

A high school choir? That's a tough one.

I'd bring with me another person who is a good listener, noting whenever there's a problem in the performance.

If possible I'd want to have at least two takes of everything from start to stop. But if notes are taken, re-record just those sections and punch in and out at the problem areas.

[Bob Womack]

Listening analytically is one of the skills you develop as a recording engineer. Another is listening "through" the foreground into the background.

Trained listening is exhausting at times because it requires a lot of brain work. It can also make you quite unpopular because no-one likes to hear that he or she has screwed up. Professional talent learn to trust the ears of the production staff and be glad that the staff have their back but others may not appreciate it.

I had a recurring situation with a producer who was afraid of a powerful talent we worked with. We'd go along recording and the talent would screw up. I'd turn to the producer and say, "We got a big hairy pop on that 'p" ." We need to go back and ask him to fix it. The producer would go all wide-eyed and say, "No, no, no!!!! We don't dare interrupt him." A week later she'd bring him in for corrections. That drove the talent crazy. When I simply stopped him during recording and asked for a fix he'd say, "Oh you caught that, did you? Okay. Let's do it again." He could hear his mistakes in his own head and appreciated being helped to sound better. Of course, communications skills are also needed.

Bob

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by jim1960

And it probably helps to have Melodyne in your tool bag.

Side "note": I did have one way off note, so I downloaded the Melodyne trial. When I switch to the polyphonic mode, I can see the bad note... but the blobs are all grey, and I can't edit. The trial is supposed to be the full Studio version. Any Melodyne users know what I'm doing wrong?

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Side "note": I did have one way off note, so I downloaded the Melodyne trial. When I switch to the polyphonic mode, I can see the bad note... but the blobs are all grey, and I can't edit. The trial is supposed to be the full Studio version. Any Melodyne users know what I'm doing wrong?

This may help...

[Brent Hahn]

It helps to have a paper version in front of you of what you're tracking. A score, a chord chart, a script, whatever. So you can make notes in pencil right where the flub is.

It also helps to have someone VERY musical in the room with you if that person isn't already you. An eagle-eared arbiter of pitch and time. You may not feel like you need to fix every little issue, but at least you'll know where they all are.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by jim1960

This may help...

Thanks. I figured it out... the trial defaulted to the lower version that didn't have polyphonic editing; I had to go into the license settings to tweak it. Once I had the full version, it took all of 3 seconds to view and remove the completely wrong note that one of the altos blurted out. Magic! You can't even tell it wasn't perfect originally.

Better to "fix it in pre", but boy howdy you can do some amazing stuff in post these days.

Sounds like I just need to sharpen my listening skills (maybe pay less attention to the meters once everything is set and rolling), and/or bring another pair of ears along that can help.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Thanks. I figured it out... the trial defaulted to the lower version that didn't have polyphonic editing; I had to go into the license settings to tweak it. Once I had the full version, it took all of 3 seconds to view and remove the completely wrong note that one of the altos blurted out. Magic! You can't even tell it wasn't perfect originally.

Melodyne can definitely save your bacon on occasion. Glad it helped.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

When you are recording someone else in a time-limited setting, how do you make sure you catch all the flubs before the talent leaves?

The brain can gloss over or miss mistakes in real time, so sometimes a mistake isn't obvious until you listen back. Often you'd have time to do a quick punch-in if you caught it right away, but you're out of luck if you don't.

Do you just buy the talent pizza while you do a listen-back anyway? Train your brain to better hear a buzz or off note or off timing even though you're trying to engineer at the same time? Do 3 extra takes of everything just in case?

Do any of you with experience recording others have any tips for how you can do the best at making sure you hear & note any clams before the session is over?

(And yes, in my case the train has already left the station, but I want to do better next time! I was recording a HS choir and have a few really rough spots on one piece.)

I hear you. It's tough.

The first thing I want to say is that the onus of scrutinizing the takes as they happen is really on the producer. I'm assuming there is no official producer on these sessions. In your case, I would assume the choir director would be making those calls. Maybe they just needed to be made aware that it isn't typically the engineer's job, so they were comfortable with that?

So, let's assume that you are playing that limited producer role. Here's what I do.

#1: I make sure that I am set for the recording. I've spent time setting up the signal chain so that I'm getting the sound I want and I don't need to worry about mid-flight adjustments

#2: I make sure the session is setup for quick work. I set markets for all my in points so I can navigate quickly without thinking. I have all the tracks I need already setup in the DAW, with inputs/outputs pre-assigned and ready to go. I also typically have 8-12 spare tracks created & muted to drop things on that I need to keep track of outside of the playlist/takes function of the DAW & I also have a keyboard shortcut to create a new take in one press on the record enabled tracks.

#3: I've already sussed out the headphone mix for the artists & established that they are comfortable & can easily hear my talkback & I can hear them (listenback is set).

So the hard work is done & the task at hand is capturing the takes. Now I can focus on listening. I'll drop a marker whenever I hear something questionable to remember to bring it up. Even better is when I'm provided with a score or sheet music/lead sheets to follow along. This also lets me check the music, just in case it was meant to be that way. Plus, I can make pencil notes on the score. I can then use talkback between takes to point out issues & get retakes...and then, after a handful of takes, we can all sit in the control room & listen back to the potential issues & make a plan. Or, in th case of a choir, I make sure I can playback to their headphones or the live room speakers so they can listen in place, and have the director come in the control room for a chat.

Oh, and yes. multiple takes of everything. I always ask for an extra by saying "I think we have everything, but let's do one more take, as a safety". That conveys 2 messages: [1] you did it, you can relax, [2] I don't think the "good take was an accident, I know you can give me one more.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Can't help you. I'm still waiting for the talent to arrive!

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Thanks. I figured it out... the trial defaulted to the lower version that didn't have polyphonic editing; I had to go into the license settings to tweak it. Once I had the full version, it took all of 3 seconds to view and remove the completely wrong note that one of the altos blurted out. Magic! You can't even tell it wasn't perfect originally.

Better to "fix it in pre", but boy howdy you can do some amazing stuff in post these days.

Interesting to hear. Maybe with a chorus, Melodyne polyphonic does the job. I’ve only tried it with fingerpicking acoustic guitar, and I couldn’t avoid messing with harmonics from neighboring notes. I gave up on Editor for that use; I just use it for solo vocal parts now — sorely needed with my voice!

I could probably benefit from a side-by-side coaching session with polyphonic. .

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by b1j

Interesting to hear. Maybe with a chorus, Melodyne polyphonic does the job. I’ve only tried it with fingerpicking acoustic guitar, and I couldn’t avoid messing with harmonics from neighboring notes. I gave up on Editor for that use; I just use it for solo vocal parts now — sorely needed with my voice!

I could probably benefit from a side-by-side coaching session with polyphonic. .

To be fair, in this case the note was so off that it wasn't even close... easy to remove without affecting much else. I tried to fix up a couple other spots with closer harmonies and it did cause some artifacts. Any repair like this (spectral edits, Izotope RX algorithms, pitch correction) is a balance between removing the glitch and getting weird-sounding artifacts. Thus, this post on how to get it right *up front*, which is far easier and sounds better.

[Gordon Currie]

I believe in separation of audio and music concerns.

Therefore, for anything more than a quick demo, there must be two people listening intently during recording.

Engineers generally focus on audio issues (distortion, level changes, hitting the mike, plosives) as well as ensuring all inputs are as expected and the performance is actually being recorded

The (de facto) producer focuses on musical issues (solid rhythm, correct chord changes, lyrics, pitches, dynamics, and of course the energy and feel).

With (at least) two people focusing on different yet complementary aspects, the chance of an unfixable problem goes WAY down.