Scarf joint versus one-piece neck?

[Fliss]

I'm quite interested in hearing more about the drunken bikers...

What's curious for me is that I started this thread more than two years ago! It's the first time I've ever had an old thread that I started resurrected by someone else

The reason I was asking at the time was that I was having a custom guitar built, with a scarf joint, and I hadn't come across it before so wanted to know a little more about it. But this is a plain scarf joint, rather than the V described by Haans (and depicted so beautifully - I always love your photography Haans!) Here is a close up of the headstock of my guitar, which just shows the diagonal line of the scarf joint in the change in colour / grain direction on the side of the headstock, if you can make it out:



For anyone who wants to see the whole guitar :



Fliss

[Kent Chasson]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

Schoolside, that's not a scarf joint, it's a backstrap veneer.

That is a scarf. It's just carried further down the neck than most. You can see it increase in thickness as it approaches the corner of the, um, volute.

As for 5 piece necks, if all plies have grain going the same direction, you still have runout at the angle. The fact that the plies will inevitably have some variation in grain would likely make it less prone to breakage than a one piece neck but there are too many variables to make any blanket statements one way or the other.


I think the bottom line once again is that good necks can be made in many ways. It's more about wood selection and craftsmanship.

[Dwight]

Originally Posted by Kent Chasson

That is a scarf. It's just carried further down the neck than most. You can see it increase in thickness as it approaches the corner of the, um, volute.

Schoolside agrees because it's a Taylor 914ce.

[Chazmo]

Schoolside, any chance of a picture of the sides of the headstock. I shared Howard's confusion. I'm having a little trouble visualizing where the neck ends and where the headstock begins. I imagine there's an angular cut that will be visible from the side.

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by John Osthoff

My only reason to return to using a scarf joint would be to save material. As it is now, I am left with a fairly large piece of neck blank material, but I always seem to find a use for leftovers wether it is making some jig, or even business card holders.

Regarding the leftovers: You can use several of them to make a dandy cutting board! I still have one from the early '80s made of the leftovers from laminated bass necks - purpleheart, wenge, and maple.

[Dwight]

Originally Posted by Chazmo

Schoolside, any chance of a picture of the sides of the headstock.

note grain angle (side) at the e tuner buttons

[leeasam]

Originally Posted by Chazmo

Schoolside, any chance of a picture of the sides of the headstock. I shared Howard's confusion. I'm having a little trouble visualizing where the neck ends and where the headstock begins. I imagine there's an angular cut that will be visible from the side.

here is a good video that shows how Taylor does the neck joint

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HHIl...eature=channel

[Howard Klepper]

accidental double post

[Howard Klepper]

That's a scarf joint, alright. Most builders join the pieces lower down. Where Taylor locates it gives less protection against a short grain split through the headstock.

[Dwight]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

That's a scarf joint, alright. Most builders join the pieces lower down. Where Taylor locates it gives less protection against a short grain split through the headstock.

Luckily they have a good warranty

[Todd Stock]

Scarf joints of 12:1 ratio test at 100% of uncut strength with the common woodworking glues available when I did these tests as part of a structures project at UofMD back in the late 80's. 8:1 ratios produce 90% strength or better. Doing the math, that's about 5 and 7 degree scarfs respectively, so a 15 degree scarf will retain something less than 90%. Did not test solid headstocks because we were breaking aircraft scarf joints to validate 60 year old CAB guidance.

FWIW, I've seen one broken Martin peghead in the last five years and probably a hundred or so Gibsons and Epis. One Taylor broken just outside the finger joint, but that's what backing over a guitar will do.

We must have worn down the Martin copy writers...50 or so uses of 'diamond volute' in articles on that site, so it has become a term of art as far as I''m concerned. Not a volute, but a diamond volute, I suppose.

[Dwight]

Originally Posted by Todd Stock

..... so it has become a term of art as far as I''m concerned. Not a volute, but a diamond volute, I suppose.

(Martin inspired)

[Chazmo]

Originally Posted by Schoolside

Luckily they have a good warranty

School.. Thanks for posting the side views of the Taylor. Yup, that clarifies exactly how this joint was done. You can see the joint at the angular cut right on the nut-side of the 1/6-string tuners. Again, thanks!

To Howard's point, it's interesting to consider whether Taylor's approach shores up the neck at its weak point. Arguably, what we see there is, indeed, essentially a veneer to the main part of the neck up to the point of the angular cut. Clearly, having the scarf run down the neck a bit provides *some* support, but is it sufficient? I wonder if other builders are constructing and joining their headstock/necks this way.

Here's an interesting dose of perspective... Prior to the scarf joint, Taylor was using finger joints, like the one on my GS-MS. You can see that this was a very different approach to the design, as the neck essentially ended at the finger joint, which I think was almost entirely a straight cut.. What do you think? I wish I had side pictures to show you, but alas I sold this guitar.

[tadol]

A finger joint offers a huge amount of glue surface, making it a far stronger joint than any scarf. Any failure would certainly be in the materials - but as your picture shows, it is not the most pleasing aesthetically, and I certainly understand why they would stop using it -

[Zigeuner]

Any type of neck is good with proper choice of material and good technique. Scarf joints are fine, so are one piece necks. Finger joints are quite strong but not as aesthetically pleasing as other types.