#31
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Addtional Info
Here are a couple of informative sites to look at:
http://bryankimsey.com Lutherie page. and http://thbecker.net/guitar_playing/g...p_page_01.html
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#32
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Always adjust the string height at the nut when the neck is in its as-played geometry. The easiest way to accomplish having the neck in its as-played geometry is to do the adjustments with full (or near full) string tension on the neck. (Stewmac sells an elaborate jig/work board to hold a guitar neck in its as-played geometry while the strings are off. Sounds nice in theory. No, I don't own one and don't see one in my future.) Greatly exaggerated, but it illustrates the change in geometry: Quote:
Both John and Frank, of course, know of what they speak. The methods they describe work equally well: it's just a matter of preference which you prefer to employ. Last edited by charles Tauber; 07-16-2014 at 02:23 PM. |
#33
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I guess I was looking for a method to check *before* stringing up the guitar and bringing the neck under tension (thus the use of the straight-edge when no string under tension was available). Your method seems good for this. I can then use their method as an "after-check." Two quick final questions? 1. Given that Brhibler1 seems to get a successful set-up by adding .01 to the fretboard height (post #9), then, if I want to be a bit on the conservative side initially, it seems that starting at this level for the low E to possibly a shade less on the high E should be good, huh? 2. Quote:
Thanks again for all the helpful posts. (Some very nice instruments on your site, Charles, by the way.) . |
#34
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Others may prefer a vernier calliper for the measurement, but I find the ruler and gages to be quick and easy and is the same measuring device used to gage the nut slot depths. That means I don't need to measure with one type of device, then switch to another type of measuring device to gage the slot depths. Keep in mind that if the frets have been dressed, the frets may be a different height towards one edge of the fingerboard versus the other. I add about .006 to .008" - occasionally more for short-scale instruments or those that feel very loose - to the measurement, stack the appropriate gages to that thickness and then use the gages as a stop for filing, as seen below. Note that all strings are to full tension, but for the string belonging to the slot I'm filing. That string is at about 3/4 or so full tension. Quote:
Last edited by charles Tauber; 07-16-2014 at 09:21 PM. |
#35
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Charles,
Many thanks for sharing your considerable knowledge and experience – really, I very much appreciate your time. I know I seem like a dolt here, but I can give you the reason why I was doing all of this while the strings were *not* under tension. I have a custom-built guitar that is great in every way, but the action was just a bit too low. The luthier who built the guitar accommodated my distance from him and arranged a set-up with a more local luthier, but this did not go well (it happens). I brought the guitar to another luthier who fixed everything beautifully, but one thing he did was to install a shim underneath the nut so as not to have to make a new one (picture below). So you see my dilemma: I cannot shave the shim down while the strings are under tension. I guess I’ll decide whether to make the slots deeper (with your expert method) or pop the nut off (as I have done the past two times) and lightly sand just a little of the shim each time between string changes until it comes down to the proper height. If you (or anyone else) has suggestions here, they would be most welcome, and, again, thanks for the short course in luthiery. . |
#36
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Measure what you have; subtract from that what you want to have; remove the difference from the shim. Details: With the strings at full tension, measure the distance from the surface of the fingerboard to the bottom of the strings adjacent to the nut. I'd use feeler gages for that. Measure the height of the first fret using the method previously described. Subtract from the first measurement - the current height of the strings above the fingerboard at the nut - the second measurement - the height of the first fret. Remove the strings and the nut. Remove the shim. Measure the thickness of the shim at both ends. I'd use a vernier calliper for this. Remove, by whatever is your favourite method - I'd use a hand plane if the shim is thick enough to allow that - the amount you calculated. Reassembly it all and you should be "done". This assumes that the wooden shim does not compress and change thickness under string tension. It is unlikely that it compresses enough to matter. This also assumes that the individual string heights are already at the correct proportional heights, one to the next. If not, you'll need to adjust the height of each individually, accordingly. More than likely, the assumption is false. Were it me, if the shim is well made, I wouldn't bother with it. I'd simply cut each existing slot to its required depth, as is. The shim is a red herring. Consider it a part of the nut. Last edited by charles Tauber; 07-17-2014 at 12:10 PM. |
#37
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Seriously, I think the "red herring" of the shim has afforded me the luxury of not having to tackle the task of cutting the nut slots. But, alas, I guess I'll get a set of needle files and give it a go. It's not as if I'm scalloping the top bracing. Thanks again for all your time, Charles. . |
#38
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Shimming the nut is usually a simple matter of sticking something underneath. In my experience, the choice of shim material is entirely cosmetic, if the nut is glued normally to the end of the fingerboard.
My favorite is a sticky mailing label: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luth...m/nutshim.html The idea is to raise the nut just enough so that the lowest string is set correctly, or thereabouts, and then file the slots for all of them appropriate height, one at a time as needed. I guess even the smallest problem can be overthought to the point it reaches epic proportions. . . |
#39
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In regards to setting string height at nut while strings under tension, allow for the lowest alternate tuning tension you use with any frequency.
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Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#40
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Seriously, I’m not sure if you’re referring to my handling of this issue or the former luthier. I do think the former luthier could have done something like what you suggest in your link, and I was planning to do something like this myself if I took things down a bit too far (only I was thinking of brown striping tape to match the rosewood of the guitar rather than mailing labels to match the bone of the nut). I actually don’t mind at all that I have encountered this problem, however. With the thread here as well as the one I initiated on UMGF, I think I now know the intricacies of 1st fret nut action from every angle. I worked in enterprise-level IT for quite a number of years, and it seems that when an IT project went smoothly, I learned nothing. But when things went wrong – well, that’s when the real learning began. Ditto for guitar set-ups, I think. I would like to do all set-up type activity myself in the future, and I guess one has to start somewhere. If anyone has any recommendation for needle files, I’d appreciate any suggestion. I doubt that one has to pay this much for such files if one is a non-professional: http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools...Nut_Files.html Thanks again to all. . |
#41
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#42
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Buy-it-now on eBay for 6.99, including shipping: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Welding-Torc...item27af68a0aa Sure, they're lousy files, but they can do the job if you're wiling to suffer just a little. . . I've done and taught setup work for most of my life now, so, you're right - I may be looking at things from an experienced perspective. However, as a teacher of rank newbies, I never have a problem getting them going comfortably in very short order, with no measuring of anything needed. In our shop there has never been a need to measure. It's always visual, just as I described, no matter who of us is doing the job or inspecting the instrument. High school summer interns get it the first day, and are generally able to judge nut action competently. Learning to set it quickly and easily comes a bit later, and with practice. Beginners sometimes cut the nut action too low by accident, and sometimes are timid about approaching the lowest logical point, so they leave the action a bit high. That kind of judgment comes with practice, and it can take a little while. The worst and by far the most common serious problem beginners make is scratching the peg head surface with the end of a file. Being careful with that aspect of the process takes a while to become automatic, so I always suggest they use a bit of protection - cardboard, tape, or whatever, in that area at first. Fingerboards are too often unevenly sanded with a bit of fall-off right where they contact the nut, so about the LAST thing I would consider is actually measuring string height at that position. |
#43
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The only time I would even consider it is when I personally have leveled the fingerboard, but the 'eyeball' method works just fine. Quote:
The one exception to this is when the slots are vee-shaped, rather than round- or square-bottomed. In that case, the string will actually be higher than the bottom of the slot, as checked with the thin straightedge. But that is easily remedied with rounded nut slot files. IMHO, vee-shaped slots are a bad idea, since they are susceptible to string binding during tuning. The thin straightedge I use for checking nut slot height is nothing more than the back edge of a thin razor saw blade. The kerf is about 0.012", and the body of the blade is 0.010" thick. I use the same blade to cut 'test' slots in the middle of the string slot, as a gauge for the action. My procedure for cutting nut slots is simple....saw the thin test slot until it is level with the tops of the frets. Height of this slot is checked with the back of the razor saw blade, by simply flipping it over. Once the test slot is done, I go back and widen the slot with a nut file, until the test slot disappears. Voila....the slot is done....without ever checking the height with a string. Last edited by John Arnold; 07-19-2014 at 05:13 PM. |
#44
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But, again, I do not have the experience in this area that you do. I didn't have a good straight-edge to use, and I wanted to ensure that I had something that was indeed straight and quite rigid, so I used the StewMac 18” straight-edge. Possibly this was a bit too long? Seriously, I realize that it was *way* too long, but the excess length seemed to be harmlessly protruding beyond the headstock. Quote:
Are you stating above that you cut the nut slots to precisely the distance above the fretboard as the frets? No extra clearance? If so, then I guess the height of the bridge gives you that little bit of clearance at the 1st fret to avoid any fret buzz? Thanks again for the response. . |
#45
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I'm not John, but no extra clearance is needed. Do you have extra clearance when you fret a string? No, it is at fret height by definition. There is no reason the nut can't be the same.
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