spruce from pine

spuerspeedo · #1 07-12-2013, 12:31 PM

how to tell the Difference between spruce and pine timber?

Alan Carruth · #2 07-12-2013, 12:44 PM

You might need a microscope.

What's interesting is that, if you control for density, it might not make much difference. I've tested the material properties of some White pine, and it seems to compare very well with European spruce of the same density. Spruce tends to be harder, and that may account for why it's used more for soundboards.

printer2 · #3 07-12-2013, 01:09 PM

Pine will gum up the paper on your drum sander, well at least mine.

spuerspeedo · #4 07-12-2013, 01:22 PM

Can you use pine for tops and bracings? If so dose it produce a nice sound? Thanks for your replies Dean.

printer2 · #5 07-12-2013, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuerspeedo

Can you use pine for tops and bracings? If so dose it produce a nice sound? Thanks for your replies Dean.

I have seen a couple done on some luthier forums. I did a solid body acoustic with pine but I did did not know what I was doing (and only a little bit now) and while it does sound like a guitar it could be better. I have some better wood to use for the next pine top I plan to build. I would not use it for bracing of the top but I could see it being used for the back bracing.

I look at pine being closer to spruce than mahogany and walnut, which are used as tops, so why not?

Viking · #6 07-13-2013, 01:25 AM

Here's a guitar with a pine top. It had spruce bracing, but the top is pine. I didn't build it, but it is beautiful. You might need an account on that forum to view the pictures, but it's a worth while forum to be a part of anyway.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10133&t=37566

printer2 · #7 07-13-2013, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viking

Here's a guitar with a pine top. It had spruce bracing, but the top is pine. I didn't build it, but it is beautiful. You might need an account on that forum to view the pictures, but it's a worth while forum to be a part of anyway.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewt...=10133&t=37566

Here's the body, wood from an old barn. Actually built by one of our very own posters.

I can't find the build thread but I am pretty sure this one has a pine top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=e0ht46wafN0#!

spuerspeedo · #8 07-13-2013, 08:05 AM

Wow that is amazing thanks for sharing that with me! That has give me a few ideas! Dose anyone know where to buy spruce bracing from I'm finding it hard to get hold of? I love this forums thanks again!

Ned Milburn · #9 07-13-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuerspeedo

Wow that is amazing thanks for sharing that with me! That has give me a few ideas! Dose anyone know where to buy spruce bracing from I'm finding it hard to get hold of? I love this forums thanks again!

Check out Shane at High Mountain Tonewoods (google for his website). He has Lutka spruce bracing, and he is the only wood supplier I know who splits his wood before cutting it. I have received bracing from other suppliers with wavy grain and knots in it. Shane's is always spot on for quality.

printer2 · #10 07-13-2013, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuerspeedo

Wow that is amazing thanks for sharing that with me! That has give me a few ideas! Dose anyone know where to buy spruce bracing from I'm finding it hard to get hold of? I love this forums thanks again!

I picked mine up at a RC airplane hobby shop. Those guys are as fussy about their spruce as we are. I just picked the pieces that were quarter sawn in the right direction, they use their wood both ways depending on the application. Otherwise buying bracing from a guitar related seller ends up with shipping being the major cost of the wood.

Viking · #11 07-13-2013, 11:01 PM

Some notable luthiers (like William Cumpiano) believe that the species of wood is not really all that important, that the method and care taken to build the guitar for optimal tone is the more important factor. I am not experienced enough to offer that educated an opinion on that claim, but I like it. Means that a guitar made from pine and oak can sound as good as the finest spruce and brazillian rosewood.

printer2 · #12 07-14-2013, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viking

Some notable luthiers (like William Cumpiano) believe that the species of wood is not really all that important, that the method and care taken to build the guitar for optimal tone is the more important factor. I am not experienced enough to offer that educated an opinion on that claim, but I like it. Means that a guitar made from pine and oak can sound as good as the finest spruce and brazillian rosewood.

I think you could probably have good results from plainer woods if you work with their properties but I can still see why woods traditionally used for guitars are used. The biggest thing I would think is their internal dampening, or Q (I come from an electronic background so this makes sense).

Taking two pieces of wood and rap one and the other, one goes thud and the other rings out. I am sure Rosewood has been used for more than its good looks. Mahogany is a favorite especially for necks because of its stability. Given these two woods and some good spruce I am sure I can come up with a better guitar than one using pine and oak.

But let's say the Oak/Pine guitar have a little less sustain or sparkle than the Spruce/Rosewood. Might make for a good blues guitar. Maybe it does not have the projection as the other, might be just fine for kicking around the house on a rainy (OK enough with the rain, this humidity is killing me) day. I have heard some good players modify how they play an instrument to take advantage of its characteristics. I think it would be nice to have a variety of guitar tones to chose from kicking around the house.

Speaking of pine, pine top, back, and sides.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...m/topic/132763

Viking · #13 07-14-2013, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by printer2

I think you could probably have good results from plainer woods if you work with their properties but I can still see why woods traditionally used for guitars are used. The biggest thing I would think is their internal dampening, or Q (I come from an electronic background so this makes sense).

Taking two pieces of wood and rap one and the other, one goes thud and the other rings out. I am sure Rosewood has been used for more than its good looks. Mahogany is a favorite especially for necks because of its stability. Given these two woods and some good spruce I am sure I can come up with a better guitar than one using pine and oak.

But let's say the Oak/Pine guitar have a little less sustain or sparkle than the Spruce/Rosewood. Might make for a good blues guitar. Maybe it does not have the projection as the other, might be just fine for kicking around the house on a rainy (OK enough with the rain, this humidity is killing me) day. I have heard some good players modify how they play an instrument to take advantage of its characteristics. I think it would be nice to have a variety of guitar tones to chose from kicking around the house.

Speaking of pine, pine top, back, and sides.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...m/topic/132763

That's a really cool guitar. Made completely from pine, hmmm.

I think I actually have the same opinion on wood species as you. It just seems a desirable notion that the wood choice doesn't matter. The other voice I'm largely listening to as I build my base of knowledge and thought about how the guitar is constructed, is Somogyi's. And he certainly wouldn't agree with Cumpiano. He's all about using Brazilian Rosewood and the lightest, stiffest spruce he can find when he wants a highly resonant, sustaining sound from his guitar.

The picture that comes to my mind when I think of Q, or internal dampening... Imagine you are inside one of the small structures inside a piece of wood, and the thing starts to vibrate. First, you get slammed into one wall, but then as the vibration changes direction, you then get slammed into the other wall on the other side of the room, then back to the first wall... etc. etc. There is a tremendous amount of energy loss and inefficiency when some percentage of the mass inside those structures is not anchored firmly in place. I think this is why older wood tends to sound better. Anything containing any moisture inside those small structures in the wood has finally given off the rest of it's moisture, and solidified against one of the walls. Thus when it starts to vibrate, it isn't going anywhere and doesn't contribute to energy loss.

Which also raises the point of baking wood. I once read a post from Tim McKnight, here, where he talks about baking wood raising it's Q. This would make sense if what is going on inside the wood is it's final moisture content dampening the vibration of the wood, and sucking energy from the system.

So, I wonder what a pine guitar would sound like if you first baked the wood... And maybe this is one of the reasons why redir's pine parlor sounded so nice. He used really old pine for the top.

spuerspeedo · #14 07-14-2013, 03:22 PM

I think im going buy some old wardrobes and old furniture! There is dump near where I live to, so I think after what you guys have told me im going to look in to some new woods.. I have got the bug now and I love to hear what you all have to say I have learned load thanks to you!!! Respect

Alan Carruth · #15 07-14-2013, 04:00 PM

printer2:
I think you're right about the Q value being important. I built a 'matched pair' of Classical guitars back about twenty years ago; one with BRW B&S, and the other with oak. I looked at the acoustic response (as well as I could at the time) and compared the sound, and tried to relate the differences to differences in wood properties. I think the higher damping of the oak may have contributed to a reduction in the high frequency output of that guitar, as compared with the lower damped rosewood.

It's hard to say a lot on the basis of one experiment of course. I am also of the opinion that the wood may well set a limit on what you can do, but it's up to the builder to actually approach that limit. It's distressingly easy to make really bad guitars out of nice wood, and a good maker can get a surprisingly good sound out of almost anything.

I have a set of Western Red Cedar that has exactly the same Young's modulus along and across the grain, and density, as a piece of Red spruce in my stash. The only measurable difference I can find between them is the damping. That's an experiment waiting to happen, but first I need to demonstrate the ability to make matched pairs that actually sound 'the same'. If I can do that consistently I'm in a position to try messing with variables like that.