LR Baggs Element vs. K&K Pure Western

[andyrom52]

Hey there,

I've recently acquired a beautiful 2001 Taylor 510, and my next step is to install a pickup. I've narrowed my choices down to the LR Baggs Element and the K&K Pure western. I've checked them both out on http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/ and I'm having a hard time choosing: I'll be using this guitar for mostly live shows in a small group with a keyboard and a lead guitar. Here's where I'm at so far:

I like the more natural sound of the K&K. I'll be running it through a boss EQ preamp to give the signal a boost, but I'm still concerned that my signal will still not be hot enough coming out of a passive system. Additionally, despite the fact that it may sound a bit less "natural" I think UST's do a very nice job of cutting through a mix, and since I always drive the rhythm I'm concerned about getting drowned out.

For a UST I think the Element has a very warm sound while retaining a nice punch. I've never owned one, but from a limited experience I've enjoyed the plugged in sound of Gibson Songwriters I've played/heard: I understand they use the element? My 2 biggest concerns are: 1. I don't want my sound to be overly "quacky" (I understand that you get this from most UST's but is the element worse or better than others in this department) and 2. that I'll have more feedback issues using this pickup.

Does anyone have experience with both of these P-Ups and can give me some advice before my guitar goes "under the knife"?

[jaskofall]

Hey there,

what about a SBT (K&K MINI) & Magnetic combo (sunrise, Baggs M1 etc)
Will give you the best of both worlds, Loud stage volume + naturalish sound.
& NO QUACK
You might even just be better to go with something like the DTar Wavelength dual source (UST & Mic)

Jasko

[nachomaga]

Have you tried Fishman Aura? Incredible natural sound. By the way, I think this post should be in "Electrified" section.

[Doug Young]

Those are two very different pickups, both in sound and in the way they respond to amplification and playing styles. Of the two, the element will have better feedback resistance, most likely. The Element, to me, has a fairly typical undersaddle sound, but with a bigger bass than usual. The K&K is a bit more natural sounding, but may not sound as big, and won't have as strong a signal without a preamp. Another difference is the degree to which the K&K picks up noise from hitting the top compared to the Element. Depends on your style as to which is preferred. One thing you might consider is combining both. I've done this with the DTar Wavelength, which is very similar to the Element, with different electronics. It has a second channel that can accomodate a K&K. I had that setup for a while in one guitar, and it worked ok, and the pickups were complementary. (I prefer a mag to a UST and eventually changed that setup, but thats's just me) You'd have a stereo out that you'd have to blend, but would have the wavelength on the ring, so it'd be there if you just used a mono cable. The Baggs Element also supports a second channel, and that might work with the K&K as well, I just haven't tried it myself.

[Forensicguy]

I have both an Element pickup in one of my guitars and a K&K PWM in another. In fact, I've had a total of two guitars with Element pickups and 4 guitars with K&K's so far!

My experience is that the Element pickup will be less prone to feedback than the K&K. And the Element is a very hot pickup. It's loud! You can easily overdrive the input to your amp if you don't turn it down!

The K&K while passive, is loud for a passive system. But it in no way is as loud as the Element pickup. I prefer to use the K&K with the K&K Preamp. It's relatively inexpensive and it works wonders to both bring the level up and to give you bass, mid and treble controls... something I like having to tailor the sound. I like rolling off some of the mids with the K&K.

You could also use the Element with a preamp like the K&K as well. But just be sure to turn down the output from the element pickup first or you will definitely overdrive the input to the preamp. Using the preamp with an element pickup gives you some control over the tone.

Overall, I find the K&K more natural sounding than the element pickup. It's more "real" to me. But I do worry about feedback if played too loud. I worry less about that with the element pickup.

Hope this helps.

[andyrom52]

Thank you all for the very helpful responses, and my apologies if this post is in the wrong forum. I'll put a duplicate up in Electrified now.

1 - I'm not a huge fan of soundhole pickups. The tone really doesn't work for me, and I have a hard time getting over the look.

2 - I've considered the blender options: Baggs iMix/Fishman Elipse, and that still may be on the table. I need to play a few more before I decide if the iMix is worth the extra $

3 - I've tried the Aura, and it does sound good. My only concern is that I won't get the bass responce with a Fishman that I would with the Baggs.

4 - The idea of combining the K&K with the element to make a "blender" never occured to me, does anyone else have more information on this...is it possible? Have you seen it, if so how does it perform?

[oldmilk]

I had a 1995 510 with an active Element. I matched it with a Para Acoustic DI. It was the perfect combination for that guitar. I did not find it to be quacky at all. I hated to sell that guitar, but the dread was killing my right shoulder when I played it while seated.

[Beagle1]

Originally Posted by andyrom52

My 2 biggest concerns are: 1. I don't want my sound to be overly "quacky" (I understand that you get this from most UST's but is the element worse or better than others in this department) and 2. that I'll have more feedback issues using this pickup.

andyrom52,

If those are your 2 biggest concerns, than I highly recommend checking out the new DTAR Multisource system:

http://www.d-tar.com/multi.shtml

It uses pretty much the same pickup element as the Baggs Element, but it has an 18-volt preamp (basically their Wavelength pickup) which IMHO is the best-sounding undersaddle pickup out there...no quack, great dynamics and headroom, warm tone almost as nice as the K&K (remember, it's a UST not a SBT), and most important it does not have a tendency to feedback at higher volumes like the K&K. The mic in the Multisource lets you blend in enough air to balance out the directness of the undersaddle pickup sound...no need for an Aura or MamaBear when using the Multisource, and I've never had a problem with the mic feeding back, even when playing with a large band through a PA.

[alohachris]

Aloha,

The Element was the last UST I ever used. I pulled them out of all my gigging guitars about four years ago. Never liked them all that much, even blended with an internal mic. Only tried them half a year.

As you can hear on Doug's samples, for a UST, they're not bad. But inevitably, all UST's end up losing string-to-string signal balance over time, no matter who installs them. All three of my Elements did that. Their soundhole controls are cheesy as well. Now, I wouldn't ever consider using a UST again.

If you are considering a UST, check out the DTAR Wavelength with twice as much headroom as any other UST.

If I were you, and considering the K&K mini, I'd buy the Trinity System and either the Trinity Preamp or a DTAR Solstice to blend the dual source. The Trinity, with its mini SBT and internal mic, really get very natural acoustic results, much more than does the Element.

And you can even upgrade their mic to something better like a DPA or AKG 416/516 or a Countryman for even better results.

Dual sources give you much better sound, room control and dynamics. It's a much better sound, IMO.

If you just start out with the K&K mini alone that's a very good choice. After experimenting with different combos of dual systems, I think that the K&K does a fantastic job of tying all the other elements together into a more natural sounding mix. That's a great pickup ...unless you play in bands where feedback is a concern. But I gig with mine in my three self-made Koa guitars every night and have no problems and natural sound!

Another great SBT to consider is the PUTW #54, which is more compatible with the impedances of most preamps. That and a great internal or external condenser mic can produce a great, natural acoustic sound on most guitars.

Check out different dual source systems and plan it out before you buy for signal hygiene and compatibility.

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by andyrom52

Hey there,

I've recently acquired a beautiful 2001 Taylor 510, and my next step is to install a pickup. I've narrowed my choices down to the LR Baggs Element and the K&K Pure western. I've checked them both out on http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/ and I'm having a hard time choosing: I'll be using this guitar for mostly live shows in a small group with a keyboard and a lead guitar. Here's where I'm at so far:

I like the more natural sound of the K&K. I'll be running it through a boss EQ preamp to give the signal a boost, but I'm still concerned that my signal will still not be hot enough coming out of a passive system. Additionally, despite the fact that it may sound a bit less "natural" I think UST's do a very nice job of cutting through a mix, and since I always drive the rhythm I'm concerned about getting drowned out.

For a UST I think the Element has a very warm sound while retaining a nice punch. I've never owned one, but from a limited experience I've enjoyed the plugged in sound of Gibson Songwriters I've played/heard: I understand they use the element? My 2 biggest concerns are: 1. I don't want my sound to be overly "quacky" (I understand that you get this from most UST's but is the element worse or better than others in this department) and 2. that I'll have more feedback issues using this pickup.

Does anyone have experience with both of these P-Ups and can give me some advice before my guitar goes "under the knife"?

Hi andyrom52,

Install the L. R. Baggs Element and run its output through a Fishman Aura Dreadnought Pedal or the soon to be available Fishman Aura Spectrum. Something to be aware of:

UST + Aura = No Quack + Full Resonant Natural-Sounding Amplified Tone

I'm going to say that the K & K, which I've never used, but based on my experiences with other SBTs, will be prone to more feedback than the UST Element/Aura system.

Regards,

SpruceTop

[alohachris]

Aloha,

It is important that one plan the other parts of the signal chain in choosing the parts of the chain. That way, you have plans, compatible electronics AND TOOLS to offset things like feedback that come visiting now and again.

Like for pickups. Some here assume that the K&K and other SBT's must be feedback prone by nature. That could be true - BUT NOT IF YOU CHOOSE THE OTHER PARTS OF THE CHAIN WISELY.

In the last two years, I've played more than 200 gigs through my Dream Live rig. I've played in every kind of venue, setting and crowd you can imagine, even with drums and electric basses right next to my guitar there on tiny stages in the foliage. My K&K/ internal mics dual system has not fedback once! NOT ONCE!

Why? I run those (often in stereo) through a Pendulum module ino the SPS-1 preamp with fully parametric EQ, then into a dual engine, stereo FX unit, the TC M-2000. Then the signal is run into the wonderfully smooth and cool-running Parasound 2125 amp and then out through some amazing handmade Koa Daedalus W803 speakers. I also use the best cables I can afford and I know how to use speaker placement and stereo imaging to completely eradicate any hint of feedback - even with a small combo in a bright room.

So no, the K&K doesn't have to automatically be more "feedback prone." The signal chain is important, boys! That and a bit of experience. For example, if you think you can control SBT pickup feedback with the inferior EQ section of a PADI?......

alohachris

[dberch]

Nice job Chris. You just spanked everyone who has to live with a budget.

I partly agree with you though. The entire signal chain is just as important as the pickup being used. I also have played 200 plus shows indoors and out for 20 to +800 folks with my K&K equipped guitars without mic (dread, OM, mini jumbo, Larrivee L-body) in the last two years with zero feedback.

My signal chain: K&K equipped guitars -> 6 ft cable -> K&K Pure XLR -> patch cord -> Boss Tu-2 tuner -> 10 ft guitar cable -> PA or Amp (currently: Bose L1 Model 1 with one B1 sub or AER Compact 60; Formerly: Yamaha EMX640 w 12" mains and one 10" monitor or Roland AC-100).

I use decent quality standard cables (not the fancy Monster or others)

I also agree with you about the Baggs PADI. It's an OK tool for most stuations. But that thing they call a Notch is simply not a notch filter. A notch filter has a vary narrow bandwidth and cuts deep, usually -20db to kill feedback with minimal affect on the rest of the sound. The Baggs "notch" is a wide bandwith and only cuts -8db. In some cases that just not enough.

Just curious Chris - do you use a monitor?

Finally, to the orignal poster, Andyrom 52, I hope this helps you make your choice. you CAN get gorgeous lush acoustic tone from a k&K mini (with or without the mic) and without feedback. There is a slight learning curve, and in my opinion the K&K XLR preamp is an important piece of the picture. not just for the XLR out, but for the phase reversal switch. That by itself will kill 90% of the feedback you might get.

David

[andyrom52]

I love this forum, folks can have different opinions, but offer so much helpful information based on a wealth of experience!

alohachris - excellent points regarding signal chain with the K&K

sprucetop - I've heard the UST/Aura combo and its a great amplified sound, so that's the way I'll probably go if I get the Element

Thank you all for your help, I have a lot to think about, but it sounds like there's satisfied customers on both sides, so I probably won't be terribly unhappy regardless of which I choose.

[Aaron Smith]

I started with the Baggs Element in my Gibson J-45. i liked it more than the Fishman blender system that I had in my Taylor, but it still was a little quackier and glassier than I preferred. Interestingly, when I play with a band it does a great job of cutting through; however, I usually play as a soloist and I wanted a more natural sound. I ended up with with the K&K PWM through a Fishman ProEQ Platinum; really happy with the sound. When I really want the "bite" to cut through the band, I still stick with my Taylor/Fishman UST.

[66strummer]

If you're still considering dual source pickups, the B-Band A2.2 is a fine system IMO. I've mentioned it here before and posted recorded sound clips in a number of threads.