Emerald pinned bridge owners....

[DethWshBkr]

***Anyone with a standard pinned bridge***

Can you take a picture of the string angle from the bridge pins across the saddle?

For the life of me, I cannot get my x30 to play anywhere nearly as nice as my RainSong, or my newly acquired Taylor 816.
Both of those guitars just feel effortless to press down on the strings, and especially barre chords.
Both of my X30s have just felt very heavy to try to play properly, and to be honest the x30 I still have is my least played as a result of that. I did have the one taken to a shop to have set up, and it did make it marginally better but still it was not great. If I have my string heights set good I get a buzzing pretty badly.
Nevertheless I finally decided to undertake some pretty drastic changes on my own so I'm just curious to see what everybody's string angle is from the bridge pins to the saddle.

[David Eastwood]

I'll be happy to take some shots of mine when I get a chance - but I'm puzzled by what the break angle of the string across the saddle have to do with playability.

[DethWshBkr]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

I'll be happy to take some shots of mine when I get a chance - but I'm puzzled by what the break angle of the string across the saddle have to do with playability.

I think my saddle is just ridiculously high, which is in turn making the string height very high.

To my scrub self, the nut and saddle have been high, which makes it hard to press on the strings. My Padauk never went through any sort of setup, and everything just looks SO TALL compared to the RainSong and the Taylor. Those, the break height (thank you, I didn't know what to call that) is very shallow, and they both play phenomenal.



I must say, I always read everyone saying how their guitar arrived perfectly in tune. Both of mine were way out of tune, and I felt played hard. My Cocobolo one, I had set up at a shop. He make some changes, but took it as low as he dared. I went further, and when I matched the string heights of the RainSong, it buzzed badly. I had to put the original saddle and nut on to make it not buzz, but play very difficult.

[DethWshBkr]

Another quick question for you...... The end of the fretboard is there any fall away on that, or is your fretboard straight right up until the end of it?

[Rashi63]

Not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but this is from an X7 (newest model) with bridge pins.

[BlueStarfish]

I have a 2019-vintage X20, with the pinned bridge. I've gotten the set-up to a point where it is extremely comfy for me (0.100" 12th fret action on the 6th string, 0.080" on the 1st, with about 0.008" of neck relief). I'm primarily a flat picker, so my preferred action may be slightly higher than yours, but it would be no problem to put it down a bit if I wanted that.

I have never quite figured out how to easily do photos, so I won't provide that. However I will provide something that may be even more useful to you, which are measurements.

I measured the distance between the soundboard, and the bottom of the 6th string, right next to the bridge (so within 1/4" or so of the saddle). It's 0.625" on my X20.

As a point of comparison, the same measurement on my McPherson Sable is about 0.400". The same measurement on my Seagull dread is also about 0.400".

So you can clearly see that, by design, the X20's bridge is holding the strings higher off the soundboard than most guitar designs. It's supposed to be that way. I suspect it's part of what gives the X20 the amazing volume and tone it gets as compared to its physical dimensions. I don't know if the X30 has similar dimensions or not, but from your description I'm thinking maybe it does.

OK, back to your original complaint on playability. If you handed the guitar to me to try to get it back to playing shape, here's what I would do, in the order I would do it:

1. Check neck relief, adjust as necessary. Target relief about 0.008" at the 7th fret.

2. Check nut slots, adjust as necessary. I have found that almost all guitars seem to ship from the factory with nut slots too high, even expensive ones like Emeralds. Not sure why. Anyways I'd check that and lower them if needed. If I had to guess, this is the most likely reason the guitar felt stiff when you first opened the box. If you are not sure how to adjust the neck slots, it's worth doing some online research. It's easy enough to do if you know the right way to do it and have the right tools, but also easy to mess up.

3. Check action at 12th fret and adjust saddle height as needed. My personal target is 0.100" to 0.105" on the 6th string -- fingerpickers might want slightly lower. If you have already lowered the saddle to where it "looks normal" as compared to other guitars, it might actually be way too low at this point (see measurements above), so your X30 might now need shims or a new saddle (which would explain the buzzing).

If you are handy and mechanically inclined, this is all fairly straight forward on a DIY basis (if you have the right tools). if not, and you want professional help, it's straight forward work for an experienced acoustic guitar tech. However, that's almost certainly NOT the guy behind the maintenance counter at Guitar Center -- you'll need to find a locally owned shop that specializes in acoustic instruments and has a good repair shop. I'm in the Bay Area and have mostly had good luck with Gryphon for example.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by DethWshBkr

I think my saddle is just ridiculously high, which is in turn making the string height very high.

To my scrub self, the nut and saddle have been high, which makes it hard to press on the strings. My Padauk never went through any sort of setup, and everything just looks SO TALL compared to the RainSong and the Taylor. Those, the break height (thank you, I didn't know what to call that) is very shallow, and they both play phenomenal.

My 2019 Emerald X20 saddle height is kind of high too. I've never checked the neck angle because I'm afraid of what I may find! The action height can definitely come down a bit on mine and I could easily remove a 1/32-inch off the saddle bottom. Anyway, the guitar plays pretty nice as is but someday I'll get around to working on the saddle.

[DethWshBkr]

Heres what I have so far. I'll try to get my vernier caliper in there to get actual heights.

Mind you on the Emerald - this is AFTER I HAVE NOW REMOVED 1.1mm OF SADDLE HEIGHT, and it is STILL that high.... its clearly, visibly MUCH higher than the others, which of course means the height at the 12th fret or others will also be much higher.

Depending on how you're viewing - the order is Taylor 816 nut, RainSong BI-J nut, Emerald X30 nut. Then Taylor saddle, RainSong saddle, Emerald saddle.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by DethWshBkr

Heres what I have so far. I'll try to get my vernier caliper in there to get actual heights.

Mind you on the Emerald - this is AFTER I HAVE NOW REMOVED 1.1mm OF SADDLE HEIGHT, and it is STILL that high.... its clearly, visibly MUCH higher than the others, which of course means the height at the 12th fret or others will also be much higher.

Depending on how you're viewing - the order is Taylor 816 nut, RainSong BI-J nut, Emerald X30 nut. Then Taylor saddle, RainSong saddle, Emerald saddle.

It looks like Emerald could use a few pointers on guitar geometry and factory setup. My Emerald X20 looks similar to your nut and saddle. Okay, have you checked your neck relief yet? If you haven't done so, and if it's high, adjusting this down to about .005" to .007" will lower your action a bit. Have you checked your neck angle by laying an 18-inch to 24-inch straight edge on the frets to see if it lands on top of the front of the bridge? Frankly, I've had RainSongs on which a straight edge will land 1/32" under or 1/32" over the top of the bridge, and some that land right on top of the bridge. This may not be as much of a concern with a new carbon guitar as it would with a new all-solid-wood guitar because if the carbon plays well from the get-go, it'll stay that way for a long time. Then again, there's not much you can do with neck angle on Emerald's unibody construction.

[BlueStarfish]

Hi DethWshBkr,

Sorry this is turning out to be a frustrating situation for you!

To repeat the key takeaway from my previous post -- my X20 has, by design, a bridge and saddle height that is about 1/4" HIGHER (relative to the soundboard) than all of my other guitars. It's not a defect, it's by design. I can say that if I sanded down the factory action on my X20 by 1.1 mm, to make the bridge height similar to my other guitars, it would also be buzzing like crazy. Even though the bridge is higher than normal relative to the soundboard, it's still perfectly aligned to the fretboard and nut. From your description of your X30, I think it's highly likely your X30 has a similar bridge design.

You mentioned vernier calipers to take a measurement. My apologies if this is off-base but it makes me speculate that you don't own a string action gage? That tool (along with a set of feeler gages) will be the best one to do most of the measurements you need to get this sorted out. If you don't own a string action gage, can I suggest you order the Music Nomad one from Amazon, and then revert back to us with some action measurements once you've received the gage? You could also order a set of feeler gages at the same time. These two tools will be good investments, you'll find you use them in the future. Again apologies if I have guessed wrong on this situation, trying my best to be helpful and friendly over the internet

[BlueStarfish]

One more note, sorry to pile on but this thread is kinda interesting to the guitar geek in me.

I was trying to turn over in my brain how it is that the bridge+saddle height on my X20 is so much higher than all my other guitars, yet the geometry to the fretboard and nut still works and the action is perfect. For that to be true, there has to be something else in the geometry of the X20 that is non-standard.

It turns out, it's the geometry of the top of the guitar itself. I pulled out a straight edge and put it end-to-end on the top of the X20. The top is concave, with about 3/16" of air gap under the straight edge right in the center of the guitar. All my other guitars with more standard designs, the top is convex. About 1/4" of air gap under the straight edge, at the bottom end of the lower bout (but not in the center). All of these measurements under tension of a standard set of medium strings. I'm no luthier, but it strikes me that the top and bridge of the X20 have a very non-standard design. I had never noticed this before this thread. I won't complain as I love my X20, the non-standard design seems to work very well!

[DethWshBkr]

Originally Posted by BlueStarfish

Hi DethWshBkr,

Sorry this is turning out to be a frustrating situation for you!

To repeat the key takeaway from my previous post -- my X20 has, by design, a bridge and saddle height that is about 1/4" HIGHER (relative to the soundboard) than all of my other guitars. It's not a defect, it's by design. I can say that if I sanded down the factory action on my X20 by 1.1 mm, to make the bridge height similar to my other guitars, it would also be buzzing like crazy. Even though the bridge is higher than normal relative to the soundboard, it's still perfectly aligned to the fretboard and nut. From your description of your X30, I think it's highly likely your X30 has a similar bridge design.

You mentioned vernier calipers to take a measurement. My apologies if this is off-base but it makes me speculate that you don't own a string action gage? That tool (along with a set of feeler gages) will be the best one to do most of the measurements you need to get this sorted out. If you don't own a string action gage, can I suggest you order the Music Nomad one from Amazon, and then revert back to us with some action measurements once you've received the gage? You could also order a set of feeler gages at the same time. These two tools will be good investments, you'll find you use them in the future. Again apologies if I have guessed wrong on this situation, trying my best to be helpful and friendly over the internet

You are correct that I do not own am action gauge. I do however have buttloads of feelers from rebuilding engines, as well has precision steel rules that I can use. But no, I do not have a string action gauge

I guess if the fretboard sits higher than normal relative to the body, the saddle and nut will require greater height. I'll have to measure that!

[seannx]

When I got my original, stock, pinned bridge X20, this is the advice Kevin gave me for lowering the action.

You will need to measure the action at the 12th fret, usually 2.3mm on bass and 1.7mm on treb. Carefully sand the bottom
of the saddle with 400 grit paper, make sure it's only a small bit at a time. The lowest we would advise to go is 2.0mm on bass and 1.5 treb.

A local luthier adjusted the saddle based on Kevin’s instruction. The action was better, no buzzing, but it was still lower on my RainSong. When I got my custom short scale (24.875”) Pinless bridge X20, I requested lower action. It came lower than my original X20, but the action on my RainSong and Taylor is lower. I was thinking of having it lowered, but as I prefer playing my 12 fret guitars, I loaned my Emerald to my youngest son. He’s a far better guitarist than me, plays all the way up the neck, and it’s a perfect performing guitar for him, with no worries about humidity or temperature.

This is something else I noticed about the two X20s. Unlike any of my other acoustics (wood or carbon fiber), they didn’t seem to get that much louder with harder strumming. The more I played them I realized the volume was just fine with more normal strumming, and there was no point in playing harder to get a sense of increased sound. The X20s were very responsive to the lightest touch, too.

I didn’t get any buzzing, but it’s possible there could have been some if I had been strumming more vigorously to get increased volume.