Home Quarantine Pickup Testing

[martingitdave]

Between work crises, I have been tinkering with pickups as a distraction from the world of insanity all around us. If you are reading this, you are probably looking for a little respite too. There is nothing revelatory or particularly insightful in this post. It’s just something for me to write and you to read.

So, here goes.

The anthem’s really good, but...

We all know the Anthem sounds great plugged into many PA system and in many guitars. It’s a fairly universal way to get a good stage sound for your audience. And, it can be installed by any competent technician. The SL version costs about $200, so it won’t break the bank in terms of pickup costs.

However, the debate continues to rage (we’re not really raging anymore about pickups given the circumstances, but you get the idea) on about its effect on acoustic tone.

I’ve got a new toy at home in the form of the McPherson Sable. It came with the Element pickup. I decided to “upgrade” it to Anthem SL. And, there was little or no change in acoustic tone. Being a tinkerer, I decided to press my luck and try the same guitar with the Schatten HFN Active pickup. I put a new saddle in and matched the action to the previous installation. There was a noticeable acoustic difference, and I didn’t really hear any drop off in plugged in performance. My conclusion is that either will work fine in that guitar, but (for now) I like the sound of the guitar acoustically without the Anthem SL system a little better. But, I reserve the right to change my mind (yeah, Jon, I know what you’re going to say...).

To that end, I have the Schatten HFN in my Sable, a K&K with their micro preamp in my Marquis and the ES2 in my Taylor 12 string. I figured I would give them all a listen through my Genzler Mini Amp, JBL Eon One Pro, and JBL Eon Compact and see how much difference there was.

The “un-revelatory” result was that they all sound good and sound about the same! Mostly like the guitar unplugged when playing with fingers and with a pick. Huh? Yup. All three systems have about the same tonal character. Once they have a decent onboard preamp, they are similar. So, If you like one, you’ll probably like all three. If you hated one, you’ll probably hate all three. And, that’s really not a surprise considering all three systems are sound board (mostly) piezo based and have a decent quality preamp. All three can be made to sound like a mic with my ToneDexter. All three are much better than anything I was using 10 years ago straight into a PA. Moreover, all three speakers I tested were better than anything that I was using 10 years ago, because they don’t break may back!

So, what about the Anthem? Well, the Anthem still has a bridge plate microphone. And, it does sound a little different from these other three active pickup solutions I am using. It also has a different feel from the SBT piezo systems I am used to. And, that’s sort of the point of this otherwise pointless post. I like the feel of playing with a SBT piezo system.

Even though the Anthem may have some advantages plugged straight into the PA, I like the feel and acoustic sound of the guitar without it. And, I like the feel and response of the piezo systems when playing amplified. ToneDexter improves on that piezo sound, but it sort of loses some of that feel. Which, I suppose, is why I seldom bother with it. A little single band parametric EQ will solve any problem frequencies with the SBTs into the PA.

As far as speakers go... I prefer the Eon One Pro, Genzler Mini, and Eon One Compact, in that order.

Peace and be safe AGFers!

[Vancebo]

What took you so long!? Not everybody has extra time on their hands but an old virus is not going to hold a good “tinkerer down”.

In the new age of Tonedexter, I just figured it really is not going to matter as much what pickup you have as long as you get string balance and a clean signal. Have fun tinkering and keep posting cause I will keep reading.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

What took you so long!? Not everybody has extra time on their hands but an old virus is not going to hold a good “tinkerer down”.

In the new age of Tonedexter, I just figured it really is not going to matter as much what pickup you have as long as you get string balance and a clean signal. Have fun tinkering and keep posting cause I will keep reading.

:-)

We moved our business to cyber space for the time being, so I have time to tinker during 30 minute down times and at night. The Dazzo is the only SBT I like that I don't currently have. I liked the one I had, but sold the guitar the system was in.

[AeroUSA]

Same conclusion as always. It may sound different without the Element (my guitars are around the same Db when checked with a sound level meter) and the HFN sounds amazing but it is not as feedback resistant. You can use a Tone Dexter but you have to carry it around.

All of these options are a compromise, you have to decide which is most important to you... I also think some of this is in the mind, at least for me it is as even my carbon guitar can appear to sound different day to day.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

But, I reserve the right to change my mind (yeah, Jon, I know what you’re going to say...)

Well now I've got to say something different... I agree.

I like piezo SBTs better than the alternative single sources. Early on, while I was still using a Baggs Element M-Si Trio, I discovered the root cause of my SBT troubles (feedback and resonances) was our floor monitor. Get rid of that and you can use an SBT in a very noisy bar.

You should try my IR. It has got no classic EQ blended-in to make-the-sale or fix artifacts of its generation. You might get the goodness without the IR creater's opinions hardwired in (you've got your own EQ). I find it most useful for strumming with my HFN where it is otherwise slightly harsh sounding. I am currently bypassing the IR when I do a compressed boost for single note classic rock leads. I can take it or leave it for fingerpicking (am taking it as my HX Stomp is in the same state for fingerpicking and strumming).

[Petty1818]

If I had loved the Anthem's tone, it would still be in my guitar, regardless of the unplugged tonal change. The reality is, I just didn't really like it. There's something about the tru-mic that I don't really love. I still think it has more of a SBT type of quality sound vs. that of a good mic. I didn't find it to be plug and play at all really. I still remember two shows where I was doing sound check and my guitar sounded honky with tons of mid range. This was to the point where my band mates asked if I had another guitar to use.

I think it's true though, there's no one pickup that will suit everyone. I have yet to find a pickup that makes my guitar sound big through a PA and that's been a constant struggle. I still really want to try the LB6 but it's a pain that it needs to be shaped and that it needs to be soldered to an endpin jack. I am still considering getting one and removing the micarta and trying it with a tusq sadde. Tusq just sounds right in my Taylor.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Well now I've got to say something different... I agree.

I like piezo SBTs better than the alternative single sources. Early on, while I was still using a Baggs Element M-Si Trio, I discovered the root cause of my SBT troubles (feedback and resonances) was our floor monitor. Get rid of that and you can use an SBT in a very noisy bar.

You should try my IR. It has got no classic EQ blended-in to make-the-sale or fix artifacts of its generation. You might get the goodness without the IR creater's opinions hardwired in (you've got your own EQ). I find it most useful for strumming with my HFN where it is otherwise slightly harsh sounding even at a gig. I am currently bypassing the IR when I do a compressed boost for single note classic rock leads. I can take it or leave it for fingerpicking (am taking it as my HX Stomp is in the same state for fingerpicking and strumming).

I will try your IR. I also need to try Cuki’s latest. Since my home office is all work and no more play, I need to setup a space in the basement for these kinds of toys and tests. I’m wiring up a CAT6 down there today to extend my Internet and will setup another computer, interface, mic, etc.

But as I’ve mentioned before. While I love technology for my work, I tend to like to keep my music experiences largely technology free. So every time I set it up, I deplore using it.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Same conclusion as always. It may sound different without the Element (my guitars are around the same Db when checked with a sound level meter) and the HFN sounds amazing but it is not as feedback resistant. You can use a Tone Dexter but you have to carry it around.

All of these options are a compromise, you have to decide which is most important to you... I also think some of this is in the mind, at least for me it is as even my carbon guitar can appear to sound different day to day.

Yes agree with all that too. As usual. :-)

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I will try your IR. I also need to try Cuki’s latest. Since my home office is all work and no more play, I need to setup a space in the basement for these kinds of toys and tests. I’m wiring up a CAT6 down there today to extend my Internet and will setup another computer, interface, mic, etc.

But as I’ve mentioned before. While I love technology for my work, I tend to like to keep my music experiences largely technology free. So every time I set it up, I deplore using it.

One thing I like about my IR is after you download it, you own it. Make as many recordings as you like while you've got your guitar, mic, and DAW set up. Run them through the IR generator script at your leisure. Everything is completely repeatable and stored on your PC (training ToneDexter is fantastic, but you have to take what you get in a process where iteration and going backwards can be clumsy). You can even tweak the code (it is commented profusely and I've explained what it is doing at every step in my article) to see what you like best. You would be hard pressed to find any STEM graduate student who has not used Octave. Octave is here for the long run. I think the most productive path is combining the IR with your own EQ choices.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

One thing I like about my IR is after you download it, you own it. Make as many recordings as you like while you've got your guitar, mic, and DAW set up. Run them through the IR generator script at your leisure. Everything is completely repeatable and stored on your PC (training ToneDexter is fantastic, but you have to take what you get in a process where iteration and going backwards can be clumsy). You can even tweak the code (it is commented profusely and I've explained what it is doing at every step in my article) to see what you like best. You would be hard pressed to find any STEM graduate student who has not used Octave. Octave is here for the long run. I think the most productive path is combining the IR with your own EQ choices.

Yes that’s a more direct approach. I remember a year or two ago when Cuki was trying to drag me through the process, we had a few Eureka moments. Like Doug Young, the only issue I have with Dexter is the size and power requirement. I’m not playing professionally. So I like simple, good enough, solutions. Of course I do some much fiddling it negates any of the simple benefits. ;-!

[BluesKing777]

I have worked from home most of this century and have done a lot of pickup buying....

My bassline hope for achievement is to get the sound I had playing live with a Shure SM57 on my guitar and a Shure SM58 for my vocal........without the attendant mic problems.

So for my playing style mostly, a mic is needed in there somewhere - that is my conclusion.....but then you end up with some of the same problems.

I will break it down.....a lot of my playing has the classic boom chic alternating bass. I want the bass note to be a ‘bom’, not booooooooom, and I want the chic to be a snare drum played with brushes. Then I add the treble notes....not too much sustain unless wanted.

My Matons with AP5-Pro system and the internal mic on full is close, very close. My Dove with full Anthem is close. But if I play hard or fast, we are.....lost. The bass goes in to a bloooooooom blooom.etc.

Now for 30s style fingerpicking, my 2 Waterloo WL-12s are hard to beat....John Hurt, Frank Stokes, Robert Johnson stuff. Bill Collings just nailed it somehow. But how, just how, do I get that plugged in to my mixer/computer/amp/gadgets for harmony vocal? I had a K&K installed in my X braced ne and I made a Tonedexter file using a Shure SM57. Oh yeah, we are close, really close....but not really.

I can hear the difference between my ladder braced Waterloo and my X braced Waterloo at 400 paces. But I doubt I call tell if they were both KK’d and TD’d.

So I believe I need it to be KK>TD plus an internal mic ala Maton system through a sep lead and output.

Help!


BluesKing777.

[martingitdave]

I’d like to keep a mic inside the guitars. But I’ve yet to find a really small internal two channel preamp that does what I want.

[James May]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

...
My bassline hope for achievement is to get the sound I had playing live with a Shure SM57 on my guitar and a Shure SM58 for my vocal........without the attendant mic problems.
...

BluesKing777.

Well then, just slap an SBT onto your vocal cords (somewhere), sing into the SM58 and train up your Dexter. Should be good to go.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by James May

Well then, just slap an SBT onto your vocal cords (somewhere), sing into the SM58 and train up your Dexter. Should be good to go.

Ha! That’ll do it!

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by James May

Well then, just slap an SBT onto your vocal cords (somewhere), sing into the SM58 and train up your Dexter. Should be good to go.

I saw a local harmonica player years back sing through his harmonica mic to get a very distorted but tuneful vocal sound!

When I saw a Shure Bullet mic for sale, I had to have it! Sounded great for 2 songs but then it was left out the back near the shed with the roller blades......


BluesKing777.