Question about Tonedexter

[Korean]

If i recorded Martin guitar with piezo at tonedexter,

and i plug Gibson with piezo in tonedexter,

Is sound like Martin?

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Korean

If i recorded Martin guitar with piezo at tonedexter,

and i plug Gibson with piezo in tonedexter,

Is sound like Martin?

To the best of my knowledge, no.

My understanding is this (but I could be wrong): ToneDexter takes the output of the mic and compares it with the output of the pickup, and uses that comparison to adjust the pickup output, when played through the ToneDexter, to sound as close as possible to the sound from the mic. In other words, it applies a differential, not the entire sound. Applying the wavemap from one guitar to another may or may not improve the sound, but I doubt it could make a Gibson sound like a Martin.

James May, the inventor of the ToneDexter, may want to jump in here to correct anything I've said that isn't true.

Update: Doug Young explains it better than I can here: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=526307

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

To the best of my knowledge, no.

My understanding is this (but I could be wrong): ToneDexter takes the output of the mic and compares it with the output of the pickup, and uses that comparison to adjust the pickup output, when played through the ToneDexter, to sound as close as possible to the sound from the mic. In other words, it applies a differential, not the entire sound.

I agree, good explanation. You could imagine a simpler scenario where I use a graphic EQ or whatever to dial in a great sound on my guitar. Then I send those settings to you, and you apply them to your totally different guitar. Will your guitar then sound like mine? Almost certainly not, and whether or not the sound is good or not is hard to predict. Not quite like applying random EQ curves, since all guitars and all pickups have something in common, but not exactly predictable, either. You can just think of ToneDexter as being able to create a very complex EQ curve, way beyond what we can do by hand, so the same issues apply.

There are cases that seem to work, like James May's demo of the Yamaha Silent guitar, using a wavemap from another classical. I'm not sure he makes the Yamaha sound just like the full guitar, but it certainly sounds better.

[Kittoon]

I wonder if Tonedexter responds to personal “attack” of guitar player? I have no burning desire to deal with microphones or the fuss involved. Could I (theoretically) “hire” someone to take my guitar, (my typical strings) my brand new ToneDexter and produce several wave maps? Then I would just use the ones I like best? Would the final product (character of sound) be any different whether I “plucked” the strings or if my “hired man” did the job? Or a “robot” for that matter, plucking the strings! Also, would the age of the strings matter? Should the strings be “broken in”? Not new, but not old and dead either. I love the idea of getting a mic-ed sound but I have never dealt with microphones and prefer not to go down that road.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Kittoon

I wonder if Tonedexter responds to personal “attack” of guitar player? I have no burning desire to deal with microphones or the fuss involved. Could I (theoretically) “hire” someone to take my guitar, (my typical strings) my brand new ToneDexter and produce several wave maps? Then I would just use the ones I like best? Would the final product (character of sound) be any different whether I “plucked” the strings or if my “hired man” did the job? Or a “robot” for that matter, plucking the strings! Also, would the age of the strings matter? Should the strings be “broken in”? Not new, but not old and dead either. I love the idea of getting a mic-ed sound but I have never dealt with microphones and prefer not to go down that road.

I think a lot of these questions (like string age) are answered on the audio sprockets site. I don't think it would make much difference how it is played, or who plays it. ToneDexter is computing the difference between what the mic hears and what the pickup hears. Unless you do something that makes those be inconsistent - example, playing all percussive tapping with a pickup that doesn't even produce sounds for those - your playing attack shouldn't make much difference. Note that the "fuss" is much less than you think. Plug in a mic, any mic with an XLR jack, put it where they show you on the site, and play. 30 (or less) seconds later, you'll have the result. The concern about mics, etc, is exaggerated in my experience. Yes, different mics and different mic placements will produce different results, but *any* mic, any reasonable placement, will produce a big improvement over the straight pickup in most cases.

[Kittoon]

Thank you for the explanation! If you could provide a “shoot-from-the-hip” answer, you would be my hero! All 5 of my guitars have only KK passive mini pickup technology. I plug into a GraceAlix preamp then off to AER/60 amp. I do bring reverb into the Alix. Do you think if I went down the ToneDexter “rabbit-hole” I would see a VERY noticeable difference? Or closer to “somewhat” or “slight” difference? I know this is a bit of a tricky question but, do you think the difference would be “night and day”? (I apologize, I understood sound/tone is subjective)

[guitarwebguy]

I’ll answer based on my experience. I have 3 K&K equipped guitars that I used with a Grace Felix because I really wanted to dial in the unique characteristics of each guitar, which the Felix did a great job at. I was always a bit skeptical re: what the TOnedexter might bring bring compared to the tweaking I was doing with the Felix. After buying a tonedexter and finding the right mic, and learning the right distance and placement for the mic (SE Electronics SE8) I sold my Felix. My guitars have never sounded so good when I use the tonedexter. Will it do the same for your gear? I don’t know. It certainly has made a believer out of me, and I sure don’t miss the tweaking with the Felix (although it is a terrific EQ box).

[Kittoon]

Thank you so much for the response! (Here we go.......... (talking to myself guitarwebguy, not you!..)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Kittoon

Thank you for the explanation! If you could provide a “shoot-from-the-hip” answer, you would be my hero! All 5 of my guitars have only KK passive mini pickup technology. I plug into a GraceAlix preamp then off to AER/60 amp. I do bring reverb into the Alix. Do you think if I went down the ToneDexter “rabbit-hole” I would see a VERY noticeable difference? Or closer to “somewhat” or “slight” difference? I know this is a bit of a tricky question but, do you think the difference would be “night and day”? (I apologize, I understood sound/tone is subjective)

ToneDexter is the only device I know of that will make a "night and day" difference, assuming it's a natural sound you're after. There are tons of demos here on AGF by all kinds of people, on the audio sprocket's site (including a video I did early on), and lots of K&K examples, so just search here and listen. The best bet is to hear for yourself and see what you think - one person's "huge difference" is another "barely noticeable".

Caveats: There are some (a few, I'd say) people who have not been happy with their results - no one likes everything - but as best as I can tell, those are mostly people who play in bands and want a sound that will "cut thru" the mix, and so on, or who play at high volumes, or possibly in poor acoustics where the "mic" tone gets lost. And of course, some people actually like the sound of a pickup. A good mic'd guitar sound works best through a good PA, and I'd say the same is true with ToneDexter. If you're playing thru poor sound systems, you may not notice enough improvement to matter. ToneDexter will help you come very close to the sound of your acoustic thru a mic. The only question is whether that's the sound you want.

[Kittoon]

My hero!...

[Marshall]

All that being said, I have made TDx wave maps of 3 different guitars with the same pickup. And I've used 2 different mics. And I can switch them around with acceptable success. I won't say it makes one sound like another. But it does color the output of a guitar in a different (and not unpleasing) way towards the target.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Korean

If i recorded Martin guitar with piezo at tonedexter,

and i plug Gibson with piezo in tonedexter,

Is sound like Martin?

Hi Korean

My thought is IF-it-worked-like-that people would be selling their waveforms sampled with high end guitars and high end mics…or at least we'd be swapping with each other.

I own three great guitars which are radically different acoustically (tone-wise) and I'm not impressed when I play any of them through another's waveform on my ToneDexter (and of course I have tried them).

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by Kittoon

I wonder if Tonedexter responds to personal “attack” of guitar player?

I make all the wavemaps for my duo partner, and they sound fine. I do know her style and approach, so I am aware of that when doing the training.

[tadol]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Caveats: There are some (a few, I'd say) people who have not been happy with their results - no one likes everything - but as best as I can tell, those are mostly people who play in bands and want a sound that will "cut thru" the mix, and so on, or who play at high volumes, or possibly in poor acoustics where the "mic" tone gets lost. And of course, some people actually like the sound of a pickup. A good mic'd guitar sound works best through a good PA, and I'd say the same is true with ToneDexter. If you're playing thru poor sound systems, you may not notice enough improvement to matter. ToneDexter will help you come very close to the sound of your acoustic thru a mic. The only question is whether that's the sound you want.

Very well said!

This is important - even James said that his performing guitar has 2 pickups in it - his UltraTonic for when he wants a pure natural acoustic sound, and a magnetic pickup, whose output he can run thru a range of effects (overdrive, distortion, flangers, etc) for when he needs that heavily modified electric guitar sound. You can modify the output from your acoustic to a degree, but pickup systems that are geared towards providing natural acoustic output won’t provide the kind of signal you really want for some uses, just as magnetic pickups aren’t designed to provide a natural, mic’d acoustic tone -

I like to sometimes use a few effects with my acoustic, (not the heavily modified electric guitar tones), and have found that the Tonedexter output, which sounds great all by itself, can be augmented with an effects box very successfully for the degree of modification I want.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Marshall

All that being said, I have made TDx wave maps of 3 different guitars with the same pickup. And I've used 2 different mics. And I can switch them around with acceptable success. I won't say it makes one sound like another. But it does color the output of a guitar in a different (and not unpleasing) way towards the target.

Agreed, I've tried the wavemaps I've made with different guitars on others. Since ultimately ToneDexter is basically a very complex EQ, it certainly "works" in that it changes the tone. In particular, I'd say it almost always gets rid of the "pickup sound". It might even sound great, tho more by accident than anything else. But I've yet to find a case where a wavemap trained on a different guitar sounded more like the natural acoustic sound than if I trained on the specific guitar, even when they have the same pickups. And it definitely doesn't transform one guitar into the other.

There are lots of analogies to this, tho with the danger of just muddying things up :-). But say you're a photographer and you set the white balance of your camera in one lighting situation (for non-camera operators, the white balance basically corrects colors to adjust for lighting differences). Can you use that stored white balance setting in a completely different envrionment? Sure. It will definitely change the way colors look. It might even look very cool. But it won't be white-balanced for the new environment, and it won't make one lighting setup look like another. However, "training" the camera by re-adjusting the white balance for each location can make colors look correct in each location, just as training your Gibson will make it sound like a Gibsom, and training a Martin will make it sound like a Martin.