Can we have another vent thread about Taylor's obsession with ES2?

[Nathan777]

I'm depressed and need to vent. Looking for a nice 12 fret short scale cutaway. Taylor's obviously got a ton in that market segment. Why does every single one of the thousands for sale have a proprietary $400 electronics system in it leaving multiple holes in the guitar (people focus on the 3 knob holes but don't forget about the giant battery hole and ugly bridge holes) and filling it full of heavy circuit boards and sensors? Are that many people who buy these limited $5,000+ Taylors really after a sub-standard electronics system from the factory that will be obsolete within the decade?

I don't really care if it's a 300-level with some boring run of the mill woods from managed new growth forests, but when you see limited runs of 900 and PS-series with rare pieces of wood it's depressing right? I assume a lot of us like to think if we find a nice guitar it will be a lifetime guitar, or maybe even an heirloom for future generations, or heck maybe we just want it to have decent resale in the future, either way I find Taylor's ES systems to really be horrible in this regard. If ES2 sounded good maybe, maybe, I could forgive it, but it's not even anything special compared to basic K&K or Fishman systems that are easily reversible.

"But you can order most Taylors without electronics." Not an argument. Why should I pay list price and wait months just to get a guitar without electronics? And for some of their limited runs it's not even an option when they just pump out 40 of these things with the dreaded "e" suffix and ship them out never to be made again. Are there any dealers who just specialize in stocking Taylors without electronics and catering to people who don't want this mess in their beautiful new guitar? Seems like a good market segment to target. Rant over. I just get so frustrated looking through Reverb listings praying just one of these guitars doesn't have the dreaded 3 knobs hiding in the picture, but no, there they are, lurking, always.

[Brent Hutto]

I have no use for any electronics and would not buy an "e" guitar.

But it seems to me if you're willing to shop online for one and hope it's without electronics, that isn't too different than just ordering one like you want.

P.S. But I also have no use for factory-built guitars that are uber-expensive because they use "limited" fancy woods.

[zmf]

Good rant. Enjoyed it. As to your rhetorical question on why Taylor does this -- sorry, I have no answer. I've wondered myself why Taylor thinks most people are going to plug in their guitars.

[SpruceTop]

Many players, including myself, like the ES2 for its good (yes, a relative term based on individual experience) amplified tone and ease of use. The street price of the factory-installed ES2 adds $300 to the street price of a non-ES2 guitar. As you know, you can order a Taylor without the ES2 but will probably have to wait a while for it. I wish you the best in your quest to fulfill your desire to get an ES2-less Taylor, and if you really want one, it will happen.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by zmf

Good rant. Enjoyed it. As to your rhetorical question on why Taylor does this -- sorry, I have no answer. I've wondered myself why Taylor thinks most people are going to plug in their guitars.

Not “most people” just most Taylor buyers. Which of course it’s a self-fulfilling thing because that’s what is available in retail stores.

[Taylor Ham]

I can make it work and I love the idea of how it works, but $300 for the system is a bit steep. I do think Taylor should cut back on the ratio of -e guitars.

The K&K does well for a third of the cost.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

Not “most people” just most Taylor buyers. Which of course it’s a self-fulfilling thing because that’s what is available in retail stores.

That's what I meant. You stated it more accurately. Why does Taylor assume most folks want to plug in Taylor guitars than, say, Martins or Gibsons?

[DownUpDave]

Oh let’s see now…..one of the most successful guitar companies in the history of guitar companies does something that some people don’t like. They are successful for a reason, they know how to appeal to the masses. And I are one of them

I was playing my Taylor 512e this morning, plugged into a Fishman Loudbox Mini and I love the tone, always have. I own other guitars with Baggs sound hole pickups. Baggs Anthem, Schatten HFN, etc. They all sound good to me, different but more then usable.

I am ok with the knobs and the ES2, to each their own and I do hope you find what you want.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by zmf

That's what I meant. You stated it more accurately. Why does Taylor assume most folks want to plug in Taylor guitars than, say, Martins or Gibsons?

That's their target market.

Most Martin buyers want a dovetail joint neck and "vintage" appointments.

Most Taylor buyers want a shiny finish, a skinny neck and electronics.

The difference is, Martin has really gone big-time the past decade or so into putting out "acoustic/electric" models at the lower-mid price points while Taylor has never really made a large-scale push into no-electronics pure acoustics on the mass market level.

Probably because Taylor is massively successful with their longstanding formula. They know their market cold.

[Sugar Bear]

I'm about to remove some craptastic electronics from a guitar that I otherwise like enough to do some work on it and bring it up to speed.

I wish all manufacturers would stop installing electronics in acoustic guitars.

If I want electronics, I'll choose what I want myself, and install it myself.

I shouldn't have to undo the manufacturer's poor decisions, and I shouldn't have to finish work that should have been done before it went out the door of the factory.

[Mycroft]

Good rant. But if you really want to have Taylor change their practices and offer more of their stock without electronics, whinging on a guitar forum is not really the way to do it.

Save the rant. and after you bought something else (not a Taylor) send the rant along with what guitar you bought instead to Taylor. If they perceive that they are losing enough sales because of the electronics, they will change their practices.

[Petty1818]

Easy solution, don’t buy a Taylor. Honestly, we as guitar players get fixated on the major brands (Gibson, Martin, Taylor etc), and ignore the hundreds of other amazing builders out there. I gave up on Taylor years ago due to their commitment to onboard electronics and the fact that they just don’t make guitars with enough warmth for my liking. Once I started looking, I found Boucher and that’s my brand of choice now.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by DownUpDave

Oh let’s see now…..one of the most successful guitar companies in the history of guitar companies does something that some people don’t like. They are successful for a reason, they know how to appeal to the masses. And I are one of them

I was playing my Taylor 512e this morning, plugged into a Fishman Loudbox Mini and I love the tone, always have. I own other guitars with Baggs sound hole pickups. Baggs Anthem, Schatten HFN, etc. They all sound good to me, different but more then usable.

I am ok with the knobs and the ES2, to each their own and I do hope you find what you want.

It’s called aggressive marketing. People buy what they think they need. There are two Taylor dealers in my area and both have been forced to literally create a Taylor only room with photos of each model and walls and walls of Taylor guitars. They appeal to the masses because they make people believe that they are the best out there. Taylor guitars can sound nice, but I would argue that most people who buy them, do so because of the reputation of the brand. The ES2 is just a part of it. I also don’t think enough musicians care about the sound of electronics as much as we do on AGF so they are probably fine with it in their guitar.

[Rudy4]

Taylor makes what people buy. Sometimes people buy non-e guitars, so they do make them.

When I was in the market for a 322 non-cutaway 14 fret without electronics it took about a day to find one here that was a year old and at a very good price.

I've also seen non-e Taylors at my local Taylor dealer so it might be good to check some other dealers because the non-e guitars are "out there somewhere".

Some dealers order in non-e guitars if they know they will have a market for them. I'd think many bigger on-line dealers would do that.

[DownUpDave]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

It’s called aggressive marketing. People buy what they think they need. There are two Taylor dealers in my area and both have been forced to literally create a Taylor only room with photos of each model and walls and walls of Taylor guitars. They appeal to the masses because they make people believe that they are the best out there. Taylor guitars can sound nice, but I would argue that most people who buy them, do so because of the reputation of the brand. The ES2 is just a part of it. I also don’t think enough musicians care about the sound of electronics as much as we do on AGF so they are probably fine with it in their guitar.

Yup I know what it is, I am in sales and marketing, please don’t hate me for it The OP initially started out with “why does Taylor do this” then a rant about how he hates it. I understand both sides of the story, he doesn’t like it but Taylor sells piles of guitars with it. I don’t agree with Taylor’s position or methods but from a business point of view I get it.