vintage archtops recommendations

[rollypolly]

I got a hankering for a vintage archtop. I've seen other makers like Guild, Hofner, and Asian imports like Ibanez, but there's something tempting about a US made Gibson archtop.

Does anyone have experience with these as a fun beater, blues/jazz machine? I'm eyeing the L-48/50 or an ES-125/120/150 type models.

If they don't have a pickup, I'm thinking of installing one. Not sure that would hurt their values since they aren't worth a whole lot anyways. Any recommendations on a pickup for these would be appreciated. I Have a K&K mini sitting in a box that I could try.

I've also seen Martin R-18s sometimes for under $2k but not sure these are good for blues/jazz - they seem fairly similar to regular flattop acoustics.

[PonyB]

As an owner of a Hofner archtop I can only offer the following advice:
Consider only carved or pressed solid wood tops, no laminates.
Arched back, many don't.
They demand a particular skill set to really make them work, not a great strummer.
I have posted this many times, but here is my 50s Hofner that I play daily.

[Steve DeRosa]

Grab a nice cold beverage of your choice, take a deep breath, and sit back - this is going to take some time:

• First off, if you haven't listened to (or played) many acoustic archtops you might want to get acquainted with their general tonal characteristics (very different from a flattop guitar - quicker response; narrower, midrange-biased tonal spectrum; harder/punchier attack; less sustain - and very unforgiving of technical deficiencies) before you consider laying down your money; there's no doubt they're unbelievably cool and classy-looking - what Ibanez justly referred to in a recent ad campaign as "guitar royalty" - and many players buy them for that reason alone, only to be disappointed when they don't meet up to their preconceived notions of tone. Archtops can be excellent blues instruments (and they're synonymous with the term "jazz guitar") - just don't expect the same results you'd get from an old National reso or Kalamazoo flattop...
  
  
• Addressing your criteria:
  
  
  • For reasons I'll explain below, I'd restrict myself to new instruments for a first purchase - good news is that there are currently more new archtops available on the market than there have been in nearly sixty years, ranging in price from $500 to $50,000+, so the only determining factor is how much you're willing to spend. The lowest-priced instruments (those under $1000) occupy the niche of the old Harmony/Kay student archtops from the '40s-50s - serviceable, playable instruments (far better-built than the originals, BTW) with acceptable tone, and a good inexpensive introduction to the genre for a first-timer; while some of these - the (discontinued) Epiphone Masterbilt Olympic/Zenith/Deluxe, Gretsch New Yorker, Loar LH-300 (also discontinued) - have solid tops (carved in the case of the Loar) I've found the effect on overall tone to be negligible. Frankly, if I were asked to recommend an instrument in this price range I'd go with the all-acoustic, all-laminated Godin 5th Avenue (FYI they make a single-pickup electric version as well as a two-pickup cutaway) which, although also unfortunately discontinued, can be had for as little as $300-400 for a used example; interestingly enough, a laminated top doesn't have the same detrimental effect as on a flattop - upright bass players have been using laminated instruments for the last century, and savvy working players in the post-WW II era often bought a 17" Gibson ES-150 (non-cutaway/single P-90 pickup) as a true dual-purpose acoustic/electric guitar. BTW, if you're interested in a contemporary instrument with similar capabilities the D'Angelico Premier EXL-1 ($999 street) - a laminated 17" cutaway with a suspended pickguard-mounted pickup - would fill the bill nicely (FYI I'm partial to the blonde finish)...
    
    When you reach the $1500+/- range you're looking at all-solid-wood, fully-carved instruments made by one of the Asian firms, as well as some dual-purpose guitars like the Guild A-150 Savoy (similar to the aforementioned D'Angelico but with a f solid top and a vintage-style DeArmond pickup - IMO a better choice for plugged-in postwar-style blues). There are generally two schools of thought here: close adherence to vintage designs and specifications - with tonal characteristics to match - and a more contemporary approach, adopting visual/tonal cues from present-day luthiers like Benedetto, Buscarino, Monteleone, et al.; again, you need to decide what your musical needs are, as well as what's most comfortable for you to play. By way of example, the Loar LH-700 - a near dead-on copy of a mid/late-1920's 16" Gibson L-5 - will get you that incisive, brash, old-time tone in spades, but if you're not used to playing vintage instruments you might find the period-accurate, thick deep-V 1-3/4" neck difficult to negotiate; similarly, the comparably-sized/priced Eastman AR605 possesses a somewhat softer, mellower tone, but has both a more modern-feeling neck and a 21st-century visual aesthetic...
    
    Crack the $4000 mark and you're beginning to get into the domain of handmade, luthier-built guitars - the only limits here being what you're willing to pay for fancier woods/trim - as well as upscale factory-production jazzboxes from the likes of Gibson and Heritage. While I don't think you'll be looking at one of these for a first purchase (although my father's mechanic had a rare circa-1950 18" Epiphone Deluxe that he bought brand-new and never really learned to play - only one I've ever seen BTW, and I should have grabbed it for the $200 asking price back in 1969 ) I'd strongly recommend playing one or more of these if the opportunity presents itself - learn what the big-ticket stuff feels/sounds like, and use that as one of your criteria for evaluating your purchase; should you decide to take the plunge - and/or you have very specific requirements - Stephen Holst will build you one of his highly-respected, all-handcarved 17" jazzboxes to order for around $5000 (laminated instruments start at $3500), about one-half to one-third what you'd pay for an L-5 or Super 400 from the Gibson Custom Shop...
    
    
  • Archtops are, by nature, highly-idiosyncratic and often-temperamental beasts, and few players/guitar techs born after the Eisenhower administration really understand what makes them tick; that said, I'd never buy a repaired/restored vintage archtop from eBay, Craigslist, newspaper classifieds, et al. Unless you're intimately familiar with the specific needs of these instruments - neck geometry (extremely important, far above and beyond that of a flattop), bridge fitment (base contouring, range of adjustment), top contour (sometimes what looks like a "sagging top" really isn't - and sometimes it is), tailpiece alignment (I've seen a few that have been off-center), etc. - there's just too many ways to get burned, and I haven't even touched on the usual caveats of neck warp/twist, binding disintegration, improper refinishing, worn/non-level frets, and the like; IME too many of the instruments you're likely to find on the cheap were "project" guitars for amateur would-be techs at one point or another, mostly around the time they went out of fashion circa 1970, and it'll cost you far more to get them "right" than it would to buy a similar piece from a reputable dealer - or a new one with a full factory warranty...

Hope this helps...

[Robin, Wales]

^^^^^What a fantastic summary Steve!

I have the acoustic Godin 5th Avenue, fitted with 13-56 pure nickel round wound strings and a rosewood bridge. A play and sing a lot of Carter style flat picked bluegrass songs with it. I love it's attack and sparse timbre - and the way it spits the notes off the fretboard. I have certainly had to adapt my song accompaniment style to the instrument (it is not great open strummed) and I do really have to "work" the guitar - but I really enjoy doing that. I have played it at a gig just mic'd and it was great. It is the guitar that I have sitting next to me right now on a stand in my office/workshop, and the one that I pick up and play each evening.

I am looking to buy a 30s/40s Chicago made pressed birch archtop. And I have found a lovely vintage guitar enthusiast near me who has been rebuilding "catalogue" guitars for years (flattops and archtops). He has one on the bench that we think is a Playtime from the late 30s and came to the UK during the war with a US G.I. It ended up in the hands of a young British soldier who played it in his regiment's dance band. There were some photos in the guitar case (original case and well beaten up!).





If the rebuild goes OK, I will buy it. The neck reset is done and the fretboard is about to go back on, followed by a reprofile then re-fret. The original rosewood bridge will be re-profiled and the tuner buttons need to be replaced - we are hoping that the tuners themselves will still work well and not need replacing. The body/braces have been checked and re-glued where needed. From the experience that I have gained from playing the 5th Avenue I'm sure that I will be able to adapt my accompaniment style to Carter pick song backing with it. And it will be a talking point for an old military veteran like me!!!

[BluesKing777]

My vote is a 30s/40s Gibson L50.

I scored a 1935 Gibson Black Special #4, a black finish L50. The chunky V neck is very similar to Waterloo V necks, but I guess each year and model specs vary pretty wildly......just look at the different configurations on Reverb L50s for sale!

Anyway, my Black Special #4 is pretty cool. I have a floating bridge Schatten pickup (piezo in the bridge!)....old bridge in the case. The Schatten is good, but made even better by running it through my Tonedexter!







BluesKing777.

[zombywoof]

The only archtop I am currently playing in a 1920 Gibson L3. And I probably play it more than any f-hole archtop I have ever owned. But when it comes to f-hole archtops I tend to prefer Epiphones to Gibsons. Something like a mid-level Triumph is a good choice.

While the lo-fi sound of the Gibson is not going to be everybody's cup of tea, it is knock dead gorgeous with its hand applied shellac spirit varnish finish and herringbone trim.

[rollypolly]

Thanks for the info everyone, especially Steve!

I had an import archtop that was pretty decent but I was admittedly disappointed with the lack of acoustic tone. I think a deep body model would be fun for acoustic and plugged. That’s why I mentioned the l-48/50 or maybe the es-125 (certain years I’ve seen are deeper body.)

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

My vote is a 30s/40s Gibson L50.

I scored a 1935 Gibson Black Special #4, a black finish L50. The chunky V neck is very similar to Waterloo V necks, but I guess each year and model specs vary pretty wildly......just look at the different configurations on Reverb L50s for sale!

Anyway, my Black Special #4 is pretty cool. I have a floating bridge Schatten pickup (piezo in the bridge!)....old bridge in the case. The Schatten is good, but made even better by running it through my Tonedexter!







BluesKing777.

Oh I really love that!!!

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by rollypolly

I got a hankering for a vintage archtop. I've seen other makers like Guild, Hofner, and Asian imports like Ibanez, but there's something tempting about a US made Gibson archtop.

Does anyone have experience with these as a fun beater, blues/jazz machine? I'm eyeing the L-48/50 or an ES-125/120/150 type models.

If they don't have a pickup, I'm thinking of installing one. Not sure that would hurt their values since they aren't worth a whole lot anyways. Any recommendations on a pickup for these would be appreciated. I Have a K&K mini sitting in a box that I could try.

I've also seen Martin R-18s sometimes for under $2k but not sure these are good for blues/jazz - they seem fairly similar to regular flattop acoustics.

Firstly, there is much confusion as to what a real archtop is.

Archtops, or carved top (and back) guitarswere developed by Gibson way back at the turn of the 20th century.

They were , of course acoustic instruments.

About 35 years later theyb started putting pickups on them - floating pickups that were kept separate from the acoustic carved top.

Sadly many good acoustic archtops have been ruined by people screwing a magnetic pickup to the top. which rarely woks because the top is designed to reverberate - FEEDBACK!

Many guitars looking like carved tops are made with pickups screwed onto the top, but for this to work the top must have, effectively a fence post glued to the top precisely to stop is reverberating.

If it is an acoustic you seek then look for an acoustic type.

If you want an electric guitar, buy any old electric, but I counsel seriously don't try to convert an acoustic into an electric, with screws into the body.
If you absolutely must turn an acoustic into an electric then use a floating pickup. Note these will only work on instruments with a separate, proud of the top, fretboard extension.

There are lots of good '30s to '50s acoustic archtops around -names like Harmony, Kay, Kraftsman, Cromwell etc.

This is my collection of archtops :

[Mycroft]

I haven't noticed Epiphone being mentioned. Prior to Gibson buying them out in the 50s, (and a number of their craftspeople striking out on their own and forming Guild) Epiphone was THE primary competitor to Gibson in the archtop market. Old Epis are excellent.

[TedBPhx]

Love my Gibson 175. Worst acoustic sound I own but plugged in… dreamy, sublime. Every guitarist should at least try one.

[Dave Richard]

'Old Epis are excellent.'

They certainly can be! I'm partial to them, I own several from the '30's, and have owned others that have come and gone. But they all needed some amount of repair when I bought them, and since I'm a luthier. it worked out. But as Steve R. rightly points out, they often need work...plus they've escalated in price in recent years, and I see many examples listed for sale, described as playable, or in good condition, that clearly need work, or have been botched up(that's true for vintage Gibsons too). I've played Loars, and Eastmans, that I thought were very good instruments. So unless a buyer is prepared for repairs, a new instrument may well be the way to go(and even a good sounding Loar may need a good setup to play it's best).

[rollypolly]

Originally Posted by PonyB

As an owner of a Hofner archtop I can only offer the following advice:
Consider only carved or pressed solid wood tops, no laminates.
Arched back, many don't.
They demand a particular skill set to really make them work, not a great strummer.
I have posted this many times, but here is my 50s Hofner that I play daily.

There are many Hofners on reverb from Germany. Do you know if the less expensive models are solid wood tops? Are they still decent guitars? Some are only 500-700 bucks. For example, the 456 model.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Oh I really love that!!!

Thanks, me too!

I played it today at lunch, then again after work but plugged in.

Now acoustically, the guitar is instant blues fingerpicking perfect and great for thunky tunes....thunk, thunk, thunk...

If I play anything pretty, it can sound....err....horrible.

Plugged in, the 4th string is louder than the others.


BluesKing777.

[Robin, Wales]

... If I play anything pretty, it can sound....err....horrible...

LOL!!! My playing technique would never be described as "pretty"!

I bet your Gibson would sound wonderful for Carter style flat picking for song accompaniment. Giving that sparce, bark behind the vocals and not "getting in the way" like a "pretty" guitar can.