First Archtop for Jazz :) for a lefty. - Page 2

rmp · #16 08-02-2022, 12:10 PM

for what it's worth,

I've had a Kingpin II for about a week. (this is the cutaway version with 2 P90s.)

I've been tweaking the setup and such but I'm really liking what it's giving me.

The P90s do hum a little bit but - that's a P90 for ya..

Lucy_Strat · #17 08-02-2022, 12:30 PM

Thanks guys and thanks Steve that's absolutely fascinating to read and I'll check some of those players out that I've not heard.

I'll post a new thread over in the electric section had a super interesting day I'm looking forward to sharing with you all.

Lucy_Strat · #18 08-18-2022, 06:06 PM

Firstly I wanna say thanks to everyone who advised on my Gretsch G5420-TG-LH 59 lefty that I got been playing it absolute none stop all week probably sending next door crazy with all the Wes Montgomery stuff n Charlie Christian stuff haha! Really nailing the tone I had in my head for the Wes stuff.

Certainly found a guitar I never plan on parting with yay!

Had quite an interesting couple of weeks on the Acoustic front as I got to play a modern Masterbilt Deluxe plugged in before a dealer sold it that surprised me, was quieter than another MIC Broadway unplugged that they had although alot was probably strings I think the Masterbilt had bronze looking strings? not to up on Acoustics yet! plugged in though it had quite a warm tone but i had to dime the amp with the peizo to get some output, On a learning mission though, n with the advise everyone gave me I've been trying to have trips out n play some acoustics as much as possible for a future purchase.

I've got a few questions that might seem a bit common sense to the experienced amongst you so I hope you don't mind me asking them n a few electric ish questions to but mainly relating to archtops.

If you are playing with fingers is there any preference say to a 17" Deluxe v the 16" Zeniths for generating output acoustically? Which should be the more audible of the two playing with a thumb.

The other day I got to play a 40's Epi Triumph after a 4 hour drive which looked like it had been through the wars a bit back repair to the seam mismatched screws binding damage but when it came up I thought it was worth the trip to experience one, one thing that surprised me was how I struggled to get any volume out of it playing with my thumb I asked the guy who was a righty player if I could have a listen an it with him playing n he was laying into it but I'd say it certainly wasnt super loud even with a pick.

Bearing in mind I've never really experienced archtops before or many flat tops for that matter so this might sound a bit of a daft question but what sort of volumes should something like that be putting out with a pick of a thumb?

I'm probably on the softer side of touch picking wise which was why I asked the guy to give it a whirl. That particular one sounded quite strident id say in tone with quite a fundamental note to it. I could imagine a better condition one being a total stunner. I'm really interested to hear how the Gibsons differ when I get to eventually try one.

The necks I preferred the modern Masterbilt Deluxe that was such a nice neck again like the modern Zenith , wasn't to sure about the neck on the Triumph Does anyone know what profile the Triumphs are?

Hoping next to have a go on a acoustic l5 or a l50 dependant on where I travel to next.

I've just started reading bobs book to get more of an understanding about woods n building archtops n stuff, Does anyone know what sort of spruce Epi or Gibson Used back in the day?

I was reading something before about certain types of wood being better for using your fingers over a pick has anyone got any advice on what to look for?

An finally one thing I was wondering what makes a Gibson sound like a Gibson an what makes a NY Epi sound like an Epi? Is it different wood selections or a construction difference or if anyone can recommend any books or articles I'd be super interested its really interesting to learn.

One thing that has crossed my mind was something like the Masterbilts then fitting a Charlie Christian pickup but I wasn't sure if the top would take one I did see a pic of one done on google that look sort of snazzy n be ok when I'm away having to stay in hotel rooms so I wouldnt have to risk leaving the Gretsch in them. I'm guessing the Godin's couldn't take one?

One thing I am also curious about as I've not experienced one yet but how do the floating pickups like the Rhythm Chief or a Floating humbucker with not being set in the top compare to the tone of the CC style pickup? Really love the sound on those CC records reminds me of a horn.

Am I right in saying the ES-150 were carved?

Well it's official I've got GAS haha! Now I've got my main playing guitar sorted to learn Jazz on I can start planning for a future purchase off a vintage Archtop or a modern Acoustic archtop or both one for trips n a nice vintage one for in the house ^_^

One thing thing that did really surprise me was the level of vibration through the 1940s Triumph I'd read about it but experiencing it was such an awesome thing with keeping it off my stomach the back was really moving when I hit a few notes.

It was fascinating in Bob Benedetto's book on the bit I'm up to about none cutaways and tone I'd never even thought about that

Huge thanks in advance (n fingers crossed my 1am ramblings make sense)

Steve DeRosa · #19 08-18-2022, 08:42 PM

Quite a laundry list of questions - I'll try to answer a few of them:

The recent-production Masterbilt archtops were, to archtop aficionados, neither fish nor fowl, lacking both the tone and historical accuracy to compete with Eastman and Loar in the entry-level bracket. FWIW Epiphone realized their error very early on - there was a long-standing rumor that they were going to do a total revamp, producing fully-carved Chinese-built instruments based on historic New York designs and priced model-for-model like the Eastman lineup - but a combination of the lockdown and changes in priorities have essentially negated any hope of realization; shame, because they could have been a real alternative for serious jazzers on a budget...
As you'll soon discover archtops are highly-idiosyncratic and temperamental beasts, and if you watched the videos I posted on the thread you started on the Electric subforum you've heard just how variable identical-model instruments can be - far more so than flattops IME. That said, tone and volume are a matter of not only the guitar itself but, in the case of a vintage model, how and by whom it was played - over the years I've found the best-sounding ones were those that had fretwear in all positions, rather than the "cowboy-chord" first four frets - but if you're looking for something that'll complement a softer thumb-picked style, a newer Benedetto-style guitar would IMO be a better choice...
I used to own a '46 Epi Blackstone, and mine had a traditional C-shape - on the thick side (as most New York-era instruments are - except for a limited period between '37-39, and only on certain models) but less "clubby" and "cheeky" than that on my '47 L-7, and one which I found reasonably comfortable in spite of my lifelong preference for slimmer/narrower profiles...
While the preferred top wood for most makers' prewar instruments was Adirondack (AKA red) spruce, its natural combination of high strength and light weight made it a vital war-production commodity, and the postwar period saw a general shift to Sitka for both Gibson and Epiphone; where they parted company was in the side/back woods, with Epiphone using walnut, mahogany, and primavera on certain models (either as standard or due to war restrictions) while Gibson stuck with maple...
There are a number of very significant differences in construction between Gibson and Epiphone - bracing, carving patterns, F-hole size/placement, body profile/dimensions - and although each guitar has its own unique voice the general rule of thumb is that size-for-size Gibsons have a sweeter, "rounder" voice, whereas Epiphones have greater string-to-string definition as well as tremendous cutting power (that physical sensation you experienced when you played that Triumph) and, in the case of the 18" Emperor and rare circa-1950 Super Deluxe, massive volume. There are exceptions to the rules, though - Al Caiola's rhythm work on the old Johnny Mathis records, using an early-40's Broadway, is a perfect example of a properly-played archtop having that warm, rich, "tone you can eat with a spoon" more often associated with Gibson or D'Angelico...
If you want "that" sound - and only "that" sound - IME the CC pickup is in a class of its own; thing is, as most players of the day were quick to realize, inletting a large pickup assembly into a carved-top like the prewar ES-150 is going to adversely affect acoustic response. Personally, I prefer a suspended pickup for any solid-wood guitar, in the interest of tone (a certain amount of the acoustic character translates to the final amplified sound) as well as versatility...
Not all the ES-150's were carved - the postwar models adopted a laminated 17" body and P-90 pickup; FYI many savvy local players adopted them as some of the first true dual-purpose instruments - the best examples could rival many a contemporary L-7 for tone and projection...
Since the beginning of the archtop revival in the '90s the Benedetto design and tonal aesthetic has become the criterion for many builders, on both the factory and small-shop level; his book is an excellent read if you want to become acquainted with the fine points of what makes them tick and, as you learn to connect what you hear to what you've read, you'll be able to make better-informed evaluations of potential purchases from a structural as well as tonal standpoint...

Good luck...

Lucy_Strat · #20 08-19-2022, 02:19 AM

Thanks Steve yet again absolutely invaluable information

I almost thought the modern masterbilts that they sounded more like an only yamaha flat top that I had well the 16" Zenith did that seemed to have some output where as the 17" Deluxe well that particular one was whisper quiet with how I play. The broadway was about 30 percent louder / fuller sounding its a shame they didn't put the frequensator on the Masterbilts that would have looked really trick / done a carved top who knows one day what they might bring out for us.

Totally get you on variance though Steve I even noticed a huge difference on the modern stuff guitar to guitar of the same model apart from the Gretsch's those were hyper consistent apart from a slightly bit more airiness on my current one which I love :3 compared to another I tried.

When I go to try some vintage Gibsons next week I'll have to take a plectrum with me as well was re watching Jonathan's vids again last night.

Neck wise I wonder if it had been reprofiled on the 40s Triumph I'd say it almost felt like a slightly fatter slim taper d that gibson used on modern Epi Les Paul's.

Oh yep that CC sound had I've found a new baby jammed in my mind all night lol they really get stuck in your head that's for sure.

That's interesting on the suspended pickup I've not tried one yet hopefully next week I'll get my hands on one at some point.

Wow I didn't know that with the post war ES-150 That's fascinating Steve were they mounted in a similar way to the ones on the godin with just two screws?

I didn't think about that with insetting a pickup into a carved top but it makes sense after reading where I'm up to in Bob's book, I'd been reading about the CES and Wes L5 and the difference in amplified tone with just the one inset pickup this morning interesting stuff.

I've got making a laminated hollowbody by Jim English as well but I've not started that yet thought I'd work my way through Bob's book I've just been reading about lightness of top and response in the book and tap tuning absolutely fascinating I think once I've I'm in my new house down in Devon an if I end up with an outbuilding spare once I've sorted space for my classic bike Id love to have a go at learning to make a guitar.

Thanks again Steve as always a huge help

I'll update when I've tried a few gibsons out an I'll try record some sound bites.

Lucy_Strat · #21 08-23-2022, 12:21 PM

Had an interesting experience the other day ^_^ played my first ever Gibson and at that a pre war one to! A 1935 L50 wow I see what you all meant about a v neck really is a V. What a sweet sounding guitar really suited my thumb playing and I could really get some oomph out of it the tone suprised me to really sweet and Mellow then i could make it go from a whisper to quote loud seemed to have alot of response an almost a natural reverb / high definition sound I really didn't want to leave it lol. Made me all the more excited for trying a 1940s l5 another l50 and a l7 at some point or an ES series.

Also got to try a Gretsch new yorker that was a nice thing I liked the v neck, finish would have looked better polished to a gloss. Was crazy bright and strident with a pic an it had a strong fundemental note then come to a dead stop unlike the lil l50 which seemed to have tons of overtones / natural reverb if those are the right ways to describe it sounded nice plugged in with the thumb although I didn't seem to be able to get the same dynamic response and range In playing as I could on the L50.

Was an interesting experience both nice guitars

actually gonna give a Godin another go at some point to all seem to do there own lil thing.

Very very interesting day