Tell me about torrified tops

RalphH · #1 12-10-2019, 04:01 PM

I just bought a guitar with one. I know what they are (baked in an oven in the absence of oxygen to boil out oils and resins without the wood actually catching fire).

But I'm curious about the properties of it beyond the much-publicized tonal enhancements.

Do they still age? I get that they simulate an old top, but do I get an x year head start or is it now 'done'.

Do they bow out just the same with age (thinking long term neck-reset prospects here) or are they more stable?

I've read they're more resistant to humidity changes. That's nice.

Any other differences?

I've just never come across one before or read all that much about them and now suddenly I own one.

Russ C · #2 12-10-2019, 04:15 PM

I've read that they are less "tough" - more susceptible to dings.

I reason with confidence that aging/opening up will continue but significantly reduced, as of course part of the process (hemicellulose) is already largely dealt with but the changes due to wood "settling" in response to string tension will certainly continue.

I'd be most interested to know more eg. whether stiffness is different. I read someone's analogy of Peanut Brittle as an example - stiff but not strong.

champ0608 · #3 12-10-2019, 04:41 PM

I believe tone of the instrument as a whole will still develop as it settles with time and opens up. The back and side wood will still needs to go through normal aging, and tone will develop as that occurs as well. So the the torrefied top might be all the way "there", but the guitar will still get better with time, in my opinion.

The rest is really a waiting game. No major guitar makers have been using this process for very long. From everything I've read, it sounds like the industry genuinely believe in the process. I also don't think they'd start using the process, at this point in the game, just to find out it makes for weaker guitars.

Dwight · #4 12-10-2019, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ C

I've read that they are less "tough" - more susceptible to dings.

I reason with confidence that aging/opening up will continue but significantly reduced, as of course part of the process (hemicellulose) is already largely dealt with but the changes due to wood "settling" in response to string tension will certainly continue.

I'd be most interested to know more eg. whether stiffness is different. I read someone's analogy of Peanut Brittle as an example - stiff but not strong.

I don't know where you are reading this stuff. Martin, Taylor and many others are using torrefaction. It is stronger, more stiff and more stable.

TDavis · #5 12-10-2019, 04:58 PM

I'm certainly no expert on torrification...but I will say this, I recently played two Collings OM-1T's at a fairly local shop. One had a standard Sitka Spruce top, the other had a torrified Sitka top. I had never played a Collings before, since they are way over my head financially, but wanted to see what the excitement was all about.

The one with the standard Sitka top and Mahogany back & sides was nice...although a bit trebly for my taste.

The one with the torrified top...had me wondering where I could borrow $4700, because it was by far the most amazing guitar I've ever played. Seriously..."angels singing" kind of thing! I mean, I thought about that guitar for weeks afterwards.

It proved to me that the torrification thing is for real, not just a gimmick.

RalphH · #6 12-10-2019, 05:02 PM

Well I've never played a standard hummingbird, only my torified version, but funnily enough i used to Angels singing analogy in the review I posted yesterday. I think I actually said humming along - see what i did there? Humming(bird)? Oh never mind.

BluesKing777 · #7 12-10-2019, 05:17 PM

I have 2 guitars with toasted tops - my OM18 Authentic with the blurb at the time that they were aiming to 'age' the top 80 years, to match the chem structure of the real 30s OM18s. The rest of the guitar still 'broke in' over a few years and today with old strings, well....

My Taylor 717e Builder's Edition had a blurb at the time from Andy of the aim of the toasting is to just 'brown it a bit'. Worked! When playing it in the shop you are confronted with a peculiar mix of old sounding top with brand spanking new other bits....but after playing it since buying at Easter, it has also broken in a lot and become a very different guitar....

Now I read your thread about your Bird and let us hope the 'work experience kid' or the others that were not watching what they were doing didn't toast the top of your guitar, or all your fears may come true when you open the case and the top is cracked right down the middle....it may still sound good though!

(If people keep substandard quality control guitars instead of sending them back, well, they may just keep doing it.)

BluesKing777.

jklotz · #8 12-10-2019, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozarkpicker

I'm certainly no expert on torrification...but I will say this, I recently played two Collings OM-1T's at a fairly local shop. One had a standard Sitka Spruce top, the other had a torrified Sitka top. I had never played a Collings before, since they are way over my head financially, but wanted to see what the excitement was all about.

The one with the standard Sitka top and Mahogany back & sides was nice...although a bit trebly for my taste.

The one with the torrified top...had me wondering where I could borrow $4700, because it was by far the most amazing guitar I've ever played. Seriously..."angels singing" kind of thing! I mean, I thought about that guitar for weeks afterwards.

It proved to me that the torrification thing is for real, not just a gimmick.

Torrifaction is certainly a thing, but I suspect the builder had a little something to do with how that guitar turned out.

darylcrisp · #9 12-10-2019, 07:14 PM

the ones I've played sound very nice, the two I own(collings mandolin, Yamaha LS36) really impress me. have no idea the long term positives or negatives as the process is relatively new within the last few years for brands to be using it.

d

Birchtop · #10 12-10-2019, 07:21 PM

I don't know much other than what I've read, but in the next day or two when my new Yamaha with the A.R.E. treatment arrives, I'll know more.

GHS · #11 12-10-2019, 08:05 PM

I purchased a used ( but like new in original case w/hang tags) Takamine EF340tt. I was not looking for it ...it found me..just came into my local GC about an hour before I walked in. Guess whoever bought it did not like it. I really dont know why...the neck maybe...1 3/4 and pretty hefty..should have known that when they bought it. Anyway, I strummed it a few times put it in the case and took it home. It is really one of the nicest sounding guitars I have ever owned. Maybe be tt contributing to it but it just sings. So, I think there may be something more to it than ad hype.

Russ C · #12 12-10-2019, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight

I don't know where you are reading this stuff. Martin, Taylor and many others are using torrefaction. It is stronger, more stiff and more stable.

I can't remember where I read it but I was "researching" out of interest, as a new torrefied top owner, and found those claims in more than one place.
I'd rather believe what you said .. can you tell me where you got your information? 😉

printer2 · #13 12-10-2019, 08:34 PM

The process removes some hemicellulose, the more it is done to spruce the more it is like cedar. Easier to damage but stiffer. How much less it is effected by humidity changes, I would not treat it too differently than a regular guitar. I have too many projects to do first but I have a body of baked birch with a baked cedar top. Was it a good idea to do the top? I will find out I guess. I am debating taking off the top so I can put an arm bevel on.

John Arnold · #14 12-10-2019, 08:56 PM

Quote:

It is stronger, more stiff and more stable.

Torrefied is both stiffer and lighter. Both of those should inprove performance. I cannot believe it is stronger, though. It is definitely more brittle.
I suspect any improvement of the guitar due to age will be less than a non-torrefied version. That does not apply to breaking in, which is different from the changes that come from age. I view break in as a process of stress redistribution, which is something all guitars experience, regardless of the wood used.

tbeltrans · #15 12-10-2019, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozarkpicker

I'm certainly no expert on torrification...but I will say this, I recently played two Collings OM-1T's at a fairly local shop. One had a standard Sitka Spruce top, the other had a torrified Sitka top. I had never played a Collings before, since they are way over my head financially, but wanted to see what the excitement was all about.

The one with the standard Sitka top and Mahogany back & sides was nice...although a bit trebly for my taste.

The one with the torrified top...had me wondering where I could borrow $4700, because it was by far the most amazing guitar I've ever played. Seriously..."angels singing" kind of thing! I mean, I thought about that guitar for weeks afterwards.

It proved to me that the torrification thing is for real, not just a gimmick.

The first guitar I have played that had a "terrified" top is my Taylor K14ce Builder's Edition. Just a litle bit of playing and I knew I had to have it. This was in October and I have owned it since then. However, since I have not played the same model without torrified top, I have no idea how much (or little) it contributed to the sound of my guitar. To me, the whole package was just right for me.

The quoted poster was able to make that comparison, so now I am thinking the top on my guitar probably contributes quite a bit to my reaction to it.

By the way, I saw the phrase "toasted top" in another post here in the thread. I like that. It gives me an image of guitar tops in a large toaster. When they pop up, instead of putting butter on them, they get stuck onto guitars.

Tony