NGD on the way (back to the shop) - Froggy Bottom H12

[mellowman]

Congrats Brian! It's a beauty. I'll be interested to hear your impressions after playing it for a while. Hopefully it sounds as good as it looks.

[SprintBob]

Congrats and welcome to the H12 Adi/EIR club!

[brianlcox]

Finally got the kids to bed. Time for some comparisons!

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A few quick thoughts:

Compared to the Model K:
The H12 is very obviously a much more intimate instrument.
The K feels very large in the lap after holding the H12 (even though the K feels like returning "Home", as it's been my main player for the past six months).
The H12 has a much quicker response and is really nice with bare fingers. Its very nice to play melodies on - no problem at all to get them to stand out on top of the chord. The K was already quite good at this, but the H12 is on another level.
While the H12 strums quite well, the K is certainly better at this.- although funky type strumming on the H12 is super fun because of the fast response.

Bourgeois JOMC
The Bourgeois JOMC is much closer to the Mahogany K than it is the Rosewood H12. No big suprise there- the bodies are quite similar.
With the longest scale length of the bunch it is the best strummer of the bunch, being only a hair ahead of the K.
Conversely, I think it can't quite keep up to the K with bare fingers fingerpicking, although it is also very good.
I think that this one overlaps enough with the K that I only really need one of them

Froggy Model K
This is my main guitar, and the one that everything is compared to. It does everything really well - which is exactly what Froggy Bottom claims. They are exactly right about that.
When I first got this guitar I wasn't sure if I was going to keep it due to the string spacing and neck shape. In an ideal world this would have a slightly different neck shape and a slightly wider string spacing, but I haven't found a guitar made me want to sell it yet!

Summary
The H12 is different enough from my other guitars that it could probably be a keeper. For a fingerstyle guitar I definitely wish it was a bit wider spaced though - a narrow 1 3/4" by 2 3/16". If it were 1 25/32" by 2 5/16" I would be a very happy camper.
I have 30 days to return it to the TFOA so I will keep playing as much as I can. I managed to get used to the Model K quite quickly, so hopefully this will happen here too. If not, I was able to rent an amazing instrument for a month for the cost of shipping and insurance - a very good deal in my books!

[brianlcox]

So after another evening of playing, I'm afraid the nut width / string spacing just isn't going to do it for me long term. The nut width was sold as 1 3/4", but is really closer to 1 11/16", or perhaps 1 23/32". The string spacing I measure is 37.5mm, which is 1mm narrower than my other Froggy. As I plan to play this one fingerstyle, I would really prefer wider than 1 3/4" even.

I have 30 days to send it back, which I might do, but I've put it up for sale/ trade in the international classifieds section if anyone is interested in giving it a try.


I'll have to find another one with wider string spacing!!!

[Rosewood99]

Originally Posted by brianlcox

So after another evening of playing, I'm afraid the string spacing just isn't going to do it for me long term. It was sold as 1 3/4", but is really closer to 1 11/16", or perhaps 1 23/32". As I plan to play this one fingerstyle, I would really prefer wider than 1 3/4" even.

I have 30 days to send it back, which I might do, but I've put it up for sale/ trade in the international classifieds section if anyone is interested in giving it a try.


I'll have to find another one with wider string spacing!!!

I think you are confusing nut width with string spacing? Most Froggy's are 1 3/4 which I'm sure that one is. But most of their guitars have 2 3/16 string spacing. I think what you are looking for is 2 1/4 or even 2 5/16 string spacing.

[brianlcox]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

I think you are confusing nut width with string spacing? Most Froggy's are 1 3/4 which I'm sure that one is. But most of their guitars have 2 3/16 string spacing. I think what you are looking for is 2 1/4 or even 2 5/16 string spacing.

Hey Paul, thanks for the heads up - I clarified. It's almost midnight here. Basically both the nut and string spacing are actually 1mm narrower than my Froggy K, although both were sold as 1 3/4" nut width.

Edit: just for fun I measured the string spacing of the Froggy K and H12 at the 3rd fret. The H12 is 1mm narrower as expected. My Bourgeois JOMC has the exact same slightly narrower string spacing at the nut as the H12, but for some reason it didn't bother me quite as much. I now see that it's because of the wider (2 5/16") spacing at the saddle. It's already caught up to the Froggy K by the third fret and further up the neck it's even wider. A helpful piece of info that I hadn't considered before.


Why oh why wasn't this H12 just by chance a custom with a 1 13/16" nut and 2 5/16" string spacing????

[Rosewood99]

Originally Posted by brianlcox

Hey Paul, thanks for the heads up - I clarified. It's almost midnight here. Basically both the nut and string spacing are actually 1mm narrower than my Froggy K, although both were sold as 1 3/4" nut width.

Edit: just for fun I measured the string spacing of the Froggy K and H12 at the 3rd fret. The H12 is 1mm narrower as expected. My Bourgeois JOMC has the exact same slightly narrower string spacing at the nut as the H12, but for some reason it didn't bother me quite as much. I now see that it's because of the wider (2 5/16") spacing at the saddle. It's already caught up to the Froggy K by the third fret and further up the neck it's even wider. A helpful piece of info that I hadn't considered before.


Why oh why wasn't this H12 just by chance a custom with a 1 13/16" nut and 2 5/16" string spacing????

That sort of make sense if you think about it. I wonder if you go up the neck two frets on your 14 fret K model, would it be the same width as your 12 fret H12?

[handers]

Originally Posted by brianlcox

Hey Paul, thanks for the heads up - I clarified. It's almost midnight here. Basically both the nut and string spacing are actually 1mm narrower than my Froggy K, although both were sold as 1 3/4" nut width.

Edit: just for fun I measured the string spacing of the Froggy K and H12 at the 3rd fret. The H12 is 1mm narrower as expected. My Bourgeois JOMC has the exact same slightly narrower string spacing at the nut as the H12, but for some reason it didn't bother me quite as much. I now see that it's because of the wider (2 5/16") spacing at the saddle. It's already caught up to the Froggy K by the third fret and further up the neck it's even wider. A helpful piece of info that I hadn't considered before.


Why oh why wasn't this H12 just by chance a custom with a 1 13/16" nut and 2 5/16" string spacing????

I feel you. My H12c was custom ordered with 1-7/8” nut and for my playing it feels perfect. You may get used to this but I didn’t. I say that from my extensive experience playing my F and my sons K. I never get fully used to the narrower string spacing across the fingerboard.

Hans

[mercy]

No matter how nice the guitar is, as a fingerstyle player I say send it back. You need at least 1 3/4 for fingerstyle and I get all mine made to 1 13/16. I find that 2 5/16 saddle is too wide. You have great guitars so you have time to be shopping for a guitar with 1 13/16 nut, you wont regret it.

[TJNies]

Funny, unrelated to Brian's issue, but receiving any guitar that doesn't suit suit you is a deterrent to buying unplayed. Especially a very expensive instrument.

[brianlcox]

AAAAAARRRRRRHHHH!

I've just been playing it again. It's really an eye openner. Wow. Even if I don't keep it, it has been easily worth paying the return shipping just to have it in the house for a couple weeks.

The more I play it though, the more I think that it is a great match for my K model. At first I thought that there was too much overlap, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Compared to the K it's even more responsive and blooms really nicely, even with a lighter touch. At the same time, I think it might actually have more headroom. The K seems rather compressed in comparison. Furthermore, the H12 seems to have more bass and treble with slightly scooped mids, while the K is more balanced across the spectrum, perhaps with even slightly stronger mids. This is especially noticeable when strumming.

I'm considering keeping it. I did a quick online search and short of ordering a custom one, I think that finding reasonably priced one with the perfect string spacing is going to be pretty slim. I might as well just hang on to this one until the right one turns up. I can always liquidate this one without much loss in order to get the other one, if such a unicorn exists.

[BrunoBlack]

It’s a tough call. I agree with much of your assessment, but of course each one can be a bit different. The H-12 is magnificent imo. I do think the K is more balanced, plays better with a pick and strums a little better. I sold my H-12 because of several small things that added up. The neck carve and string spacing were not exactly right for me, but I enjoyed the H-12 for a few years before I sold it. I now have 3 Custom Frogs (K, C and M) with an ideal neck carve and string spacing. I couldn’t be happier.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by brianlcox

AAAAAARRRRRRHHHH!

I might as well just hang on to this one until the right one turns up. I can always liquidate this one without much loss in order to get the other one, if such a unicorn exists.

Sorry it's not a perfect fit.

You're right. Chances of a used custom H12 showing up with the specs you want are slim. But you're not likely to see much depreciation on it, so no need to rush returning it.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by brianlcox

AAAAAARRRRRRHHHH!

I've just been playing it again. It's really an eye openner. Wow. Even if I don't keep it, it has been easily worth paying the return shipping just to have it in the house for a couple weeks.

The more I play it though, the more I think that it is a great match for my K model. At first I thought that there was too much overlap, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Compared to the K it's even more responsive and blooms really nicely, even with a lighter touch. At the same time, I think it might actually have more headroom. The K seems rather compressed in comparison. Furthermore, the H12 seems to have more bass and treble with slightly scooped mids, while the K is more balanced across the spectrum, perhaps with even slightly stronger mids. This is especially noticeable when strumming.

I'm considering keeping it. I did a quick online search and short of ordering a custom one, I think that finding reasonably priced one with the perfect string spacing is going to be pretty slim. I might as well just hang on to this one until the right one turns up. I can always liquidate this one without much loss in order to get the other one, if such a unicorn exists.

If you have a really competent luthier/Repair Tech anywhere remotely near you, you could perhaps have them make a new bridge for the H12 with your desired string spacing, and replace the original bridge with the new one.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Pender]

Brian, I remember Urs Winkler from Guitar-Repairs in Gams. Urs is a great luthier.