The violin/fiddle thread!

[posternutbag]

Originally Posted by scottishrogue

Thanks for your suggestions and information. I noticed the names of the 4 strings are the same as guitar strings. Is it possible to use my guitar tuner to tune a violin?

Glen

As long as it is a chromatic tuner, of course. Just remember that a guitar is technically a transposing instrument in that it sounds an octave lower than it is written.

Violins (and mandolins) are tuned in perfect fifths, from low to high: G,D,A,E. Guitars (and basses including double basses) are tuned in fourths (except for B string on a guitar) E,A,D,G,B,e.

That being said, relative tuning is more important than absolute tuning on a violin. What that means is that it is more important that the violin is in relative tune with itself than an objective outside tuning source. The reason for this is that violins, lacking frets, require precise intonation.

In the beginning, an electronic tuner will be helpful, but to really tune a violin, you must get one string in tune (usually the A string due to tradition) and then tune every other string relative to that one. Because there are no frets, there is no "fifth fret tuning" like on a guitar. You tune the open strings on a violin. Over time, your ear learns to hear the perfect fifth interval and you can tune quickly and accurately using open string double stops.

[scottishrogue]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

Speaking of headaches, I would avoid Cremona stringed instruments.

Naturally, my curiosity has been peaked. Are they overpriced for what you get? Or poor build quality? Or possibly they just don't sound very good? They offer many different models, and the less expensive models probably have cut corners, but what about some of the more expensive models?

I know you're being polite, and without trashing them, but if you have direct experience, I would appreciate any information you feel comfortable providing.

Glen

[posternutbag]

Originally Posted by scottishrogue

Naturally, my curiosity has been peaked. Are they overpriced for what you get? Or poor build quality? Or possibly they just don't sound very good? They offer many different models, and the less expensive models probably have cut corners, but what about some of the more expensive models?

I know you're being polite, and without trashing them, but if you have direct experience, I would appreciate any information you feel comfortable providing.

Glen

OK, so Cremona is the strings brand imported by SAGA. SAGA is a huge company that imports tons of Chinese factory-made instruments. Unlike some people, I actually don't have anything against Chinese instruments. SAGA imports Blueridge and Gitane guitars and Kentucky mandolins. They aren't superior instruments, but they are for the most part well made and sound fine, especially for the price.

The difference is, you can make good guitars and mandolins assembly line style, but this just doesn't work as well for strings. The attention to detail required to build a playable violin is just higher than the attention to detail needed for a guitar or mandolin.

Do not misunderstand, the Cremonas I have seen are not VSOs, they are quite pretty and they have the potential to be made playable, but they would require more work than on an Eastman or a Shen. The question is, why would someone go this route? Why buy an inferior instrument and then spend an almost equivalent amount of money bringing it up to a playable level? It is entirely possible to do it, but I can't see why one would buy a $300 instrument and then spend an almost equivalent amount to bring it up to a playable level. Like I said, it is just a headache.

The upper end Cremoas (1K+) are just not competitive with the smaller production factory violins like Eastman. A $1000 Eastman will most likely be a vastly superior instrument in fit, finish and tone.

This is compounded by the fact that SAGA tends to sell the Cremona line to guitar and band stores. Stores that by and large are not qualified to do the work necessary to bring the instrument up to playable.

[scottishrogue]

Posternutbag, thank you for responding. A lot of good information in your response. I think I'll see if there is a "mom & pop" music shop around that specializes in violins, violas, cellos, & string basses...other than GC!

Glen

[Dan Carey]

BOUGHT a violin? Yer supposed ta MAKE one! At least that's what I thought.
I started looking and was quite surprised to find that any above "student grade" violins start at around $1K and went astronomically up from there.

So, I decided to make one:
http://s49.photobucket.com/user/dcarey69/story/11539

The strings go on this weekend!

[scottishrogue]

That fiddle looks FABULOUS!!! Did you buy a kit? How long does it take? I salute you Dan!

And, I have several questions about the fittings for a violin. What woods are best for the pegs and tailpiece? Ebony, boxwood, rosewood, or perhaps tamarind? And, does a compensated tailpiece really produce a better tone?

Glen

[Dan Carey]

Originally Posted by scottishrogue

That fiddle looks FABULOUS!!! Did you buy a kit? How long does it take? I salute you Dan!

Glen

Yes, Glen, it's made from a StewMac kit. And might I add it was fun!
In order to ease the process, I followed another builder
( http://boltonneckviolin.blogspot.com...ck-violin.html ) and used a variation on his theme.
I actually cut the mortise for the neck and used the bolt-on neck with a bit of hide glue to strengthen everything. That way, I was able to shim the neck to the correct angle.
Access to the neck bolt is through the endpin.
I started the project on 1/12/14 while I was laid up after a knee replacement.
Here's the kit: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Kits/Fid...iddle_Kit.html

Dan

[Dan Carey]

Before I decided to build a fiddle I spent a lot of time on the Fiddle Hangout website: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/my/schlange

I found a gentleman in FL who re-furbishes violins as a hobby. The cheapest fiddle he could offer was a German model at about $800 USD without case or bow. Spend some time on that forum and you'll get a ton of help.

[harpon]

To scottishrogue:

I'm just about up to a year with the violin myself- and having a great time with it- and a little more laid back and entry level than the other advisers here- so I thought I'd ad some of my own experiences-

I started cheap just to see what I'd think of it- Previous piano, classical guitar and banjo- basically an intermediate player at most- started as an adult-

Got the cheapest chinese fiddle I could find for $37 online- with case and bow.
It wasn't exceptional, but could have been made more playable- The strings were aluminum coated- and I would have eventually changed them for that reason-

but I knew I was really going to like the violin- Celtic styles especially- so I soon wanted to get into something better-

and I found a Rothenberg violin online for well less than $100 delivered then- though prices have gone up now- that looked like it would be worthy-

And it is- in my own opinion- STEEL STRINGS- not favored by concert violinists- but perhaps fiddlers- and that the bow grabs MUCH BETTER than the aluminum coated cheapies on that first cheap fiddle- which I sold for slightly less than I paid-

the aluminum coating wears off the cheap strings quickly- so in the lesser price range and for learning purposes- I'd thoroughly reccomend pure steel-

Here is one of the models- still at $100- and I personally think a very adequate beginning student violin:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-4-4-FLAM...item43c7cdfa25

Before someone points it out- YES it is still made in china- although Rothenburg claims Geman roots and design-

Here's another on bid that the vendor usually also sells for about a hundred:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BANKRUPCY-FU...item43c8e1a847

These are nice violins- and that have tuners on all four strings

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ADVANCED...item35d3a70d5e

I eventually then bought a more custom made fiddle from a chinese manufacturer directly on ebay- still under $200, bare bones sans case or bow- and very happy with it and the sound I get- though I did HAVE to add three other tuners to the other strings- because this really does save having to mess with tuning the antiquated pegs quite as much- which DO wear out over the years- and the strings are stressed more by trying to get the pegs correct- than with the fine tuners when they are in range.

and incidentally- all of the violins tend to have issue with slipping pegs at first- which quickly improves in the first few weeks, if you carefully but firmly press in the pegs when you tune them- in fact first loosen them completely and work them around the holes as much as you can with light pressure to help shape the holes more- but then press them inward as you turn them up to pitch- they will pop out more easily at first- but as you continue they become more firm-

there's no need to go running to some luthier with a fistfull of dollars because this is a NATURAL OCCURRENCE with new violins and violas-

I incidentally also got a cheap 16" viola- to experience the larger size- and more carefully avoided the very cheapest level, yet still got a very playable viola delivered for under $100- the one drawback is apparently still the strings- and I'm wanting to get away from the aluminum coated strings into something harder and more grabable- so just starting to explore the world of viola string-

anyway good luck with it all- and yes- the fiddlehangout is very good- I learn by playing to the jukebox- but did I say above? - a lot of people will advise youy to get siomething very expensive and to run off to a luthier all the time-

and i personally feel they're being defensive-

because if you really want to play you HAVE to learn some of the hands on aspects- like grinding down bridges and working the pegs in and such

and you may in fact decide on something different later on- I'm starting to feel that I may gravitate to a 5 string viola, because my injured fingers like a larger size, but I still like the high e of a violin- I play a more moody kind of music than most fiddlers maybe- and I also like the low tone of the viola's low C

any good luck with it- I'm finding the string world very satisfying, and I like being able to experience instrunments without spending a lot of money-

that's the blessing of this age- it was a little different 30-40, 50 years ago- when quality was more directly tied to money- on the other hand perhaps more these days one should be wary of the very cheapest- because the mass volume of production is so many more units now..

[Dan Carey]

Harpon,
Is there any inside label info attached to the low cost violins to spoke of in the previous post? I know someone who is interest but I've been afraid of a lot of the cheaper Chinese made instruments.
Thanks!

[harpon]

I'm pretty much recommending the Rothenburgs- and they have several models for about $100 now. The one I got has the name "Rothenburg" inscribed on the upper back- and they really have some nice 3 dimensional purfing, good flame backs, full tuners and decent steel strings- The particular model I got is not advertised at the moment- but very similar to the "celtic version" except with four add-on tuners instead of the built in Grover style on the tailpiece

the first cheap chinese I had was a Crescent- it was maple, but not very good quality- the back of the neck had some spur like knotholes- the purlfing was just painted on stripes, and the strings I think were cheap aluminum coating- It was just a bit "skinny" in the body depth I think, and when I got the replacement the first thing I noticed was that it bulged and was thicker. But the Crescent had four built in Grover tuners in the tailpiece, a nice case, rosin and the standard cheap wood bow- of the type I'm still using.

a new set of strings and the bridge set to a lower height would have made it at least playable I think, and I thought about keeping it but decided I just have too many instruments- It held tune after a few days of working the pegs, but had a tinny sound, that lacked much punch or volume- and probably a good deal of that was the strings. But then again, I'd never ever played ANY type of fiddle before that- so it got me going for $37 and I think I sold it for $30- not a bad "rental" to get one's feet wet in something.

The $100 level for the Rothenburgs is a good start I think and you may find other brands for that money that are decent- but I don't think you'd do any BETTER than the Rothenburgs unless you found an exceptional used violin.

The other level is around $200 then, or slightly over, and you can really get into soime exceptional chinese fiddles and violas then, that would probably be poo-pooed a bit on the fiddlehangout, but if you search the 4/4 violin category, by price, you will come across some of the vendors, and violins that are usually sold under bid and that really look quite nice indeed, and there's probably a large percentage of fiddlers on that other site who have in fact purchased one or more of them, whether they'll admit it or not..

[steve223]

I just started playing the fiddle again after a 10 year layoff...and I am enjoying it. In fact I just ordered me another old fiddle. Looking toward to getting it.

[scottishrogue]

Originally Posted by harpon

To scottishrogue: I found a Rothenberg violin online for well less than $100 delivered then- though prices have gone up now- that looked like it would be worthy-any good luck with it- I'm finding the string world very satisfying, and I like being able to experience instrunments without spending a lot of money-

Thanks for the valuable information, much appreciated. I really liked the look of the Rothenberg violin. I'll probably go with a more expensive violin, but I want to make sure it will be decent quality. I should probably find a book on violin setup and maintenance...like "Violin for Dummies"?

Just like finding the right guitar, one must do some research so they end up with a keeper.

Glen

[harpon]

Here's an ad from a chinese vendor who ALWAYS has a lot of really really nice violins from around $300 on up-

Click on See other items or go to their store- you might want to put him on your favorites list for awhile-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nice-Bird-Ey...item5aff103e66

their are other on ebay too, maybe slightly cheaper- but this vendor's stuff always really does look top notch

[Dan Carey]

It's Finished!