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  #16  
Old 03-13-2013, 09:45 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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@JonPR - Just a minor correction: Martin Barre has played guitar (along with Ian) on all the Tull albums except for the FIRST one, "ThisWas"... the first record was the ONLY album that Mick Abrahams played on, leaving the group shortly thereafter...

I always enjoyed Jethro Tull; a lot of their acoustic music has a definite Elizabethan feel to it... as such, it brings all those Olde English harmonic movements into play... although the melody is usually the biggest indicator of the tonic...
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  #17  
Old 03-14-2013, 03:30 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by jseth View Post
@JonPR - Just a minor correction: Martin Barre has played guitar (along with Ian) on all the Tull albums except for the FIRST one, "ThisWas"... the first record was the ONLY album that Mick Abrahams played on, leaving the group shortly thereafter...
Thanks, I knew I should have checked that... :rolleye:
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  #18  
Old 03-14-2013, 03:35 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by phmike View Post
From D minor.

Eb - iidim in D minor changed to major a half step down (bII) which makes Edim into Eb.

F - bIII

Seemed to work for half-asleep me
OK, I thought you were saying those chords were in the song!

But it's still an unnecessary stretch to say you can get Eb from "D minor". It would be from D phrygian. (Still part of the "modal interchange" principle, it's only that most borrowings come from parallel aeolian, hence "borrowing from minor".)

And that's only if it's a Ebmaj7 (or would sound right if extended to that). If it happened to be Eb7, then it would be a tritone sub for A7.
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  #19  
Old 03-14-2013, 03:56 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by clintj View Post
Can you recommend a good book or books for this material? My book goes as far as harmonizing the scales and substitutions, but stops well short of this level of detail. I'd love to learn more of this stuff.
Well, I've distilled that from several books, and also from plenty of experience studying and playing rock and jazz (and, er, reading websites...).
I don't know one book that lays it out like that, but there are plenty of good theory books around. The ones I know well (because I own them!) are:

Eric Taylor - The AB Guide to Music Theory pt.1
Eric Taylor - The AB Guide to Music Theory pt.2
- both classically based, designed for the UK ABRSM grades.

Eric Taylor - First Steps in Music Theory
- excellent summary of the essential concepts for grades 1-5. Concise and cheap!

Keith Wyatt and Carl Schroeder - Harmony & Theory
- one small typo, but otherwise excellent - not too deep - with exercises in each chapter to test your knowledge.

Tom Kolb - Music Theory (Everything You Wanted to know...)
- also excellent, and guitar-friendly! (comes with CD for ear training exercises)

Mark Levine - The Jazz Theory Book
- NOT recommended, not for beginners anyhow (even in jazz). Well written, easy to read, with lots of illustrative examples from jazz recordings; but biased towards chord-scale theory, and with not enough info on basic functional harmony (keys, chord progressions)

Robert Rawlins and Nor Eddine Bahha - Jazzology
- written partly as a corrective to Levine, filling in what he left out. Unfortunately not as well designed as Levine's, and with no real-world musical quotes (all the music examples in the book were written by the authors). But recommended if it's jazz theory you want.

William Russo - Composing for the Jazz Orchestra
- about arranging rather than composing, but a good (brief) summary of basic jazz chord theory, referring to functional (not modal) harmony (eg, 6 types of 7th, their possible extensions, and common changes).

Tom Bruner - Arranging and Orchestrating Music
- similar ballpark to Russo, but more on basic theory, with exercises (as in Wyatt/Schroeder) as well as details of instrument ranges and transposition, for arrangers. The oldest theory book I own, so probably taught me the most.

There are lots of other books I've borrowed and read over the decades, whose titles escape me - probably at least as good as the above.
Of the above, I'd recommend Kolb and Wyatt/Schroeder - and maybe Bruner. And "First Steps" for essential classical basics (starting with notation).
Definitely get at least 3 books, because 1 or 2 are never enough - you need the perspective you get from reading different angles. What doesn't make sense in one will click in another.

DO check the amazon reviews for all the above, which will give you a broader picture.
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  #20  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:10 AM
clintj clintj is offline
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Thank you very much!
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  #21  
Old 03-14-2013, 06:00 PM
phmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
OK, I thought you were saying those chords were in the song!

But it's still an unnecessary stretch to say you can get Eb from "D minor". It would be from D phrygian. (Still part of the "modal interchange" principle, it's only that most borrowings come from parallel aeolian, hence "borrowing from minor".)

And that's only if it's a Ebmaj7 (or would sound right if extended to that). If it happened to be Eb7, then it would be a tritone sub for A7.
I treat dim chords (iidim in natural minor and viidim in major) the same way - make'm major a half step down. D natural minor ii chord is Edim so I make it Eb. My list of chords containing the Eb was me thinking out loud.

E-Chords site shows the song as key of D and has an F in it.
http://www.e-chords.com/tabs/jethro-tull/hymn-43
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  #22  
Old 03-15-2013, 02:34 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phmike View Post
I treat dim chords (iidim in natural minor and viidim in major) the same way - make'm major a half step down. D natural minor ii chord is Edim so I make it Eb.
But they're very different things!
Edim in D minor is a ii chord, subdominant function. Expands to Em7b5; probably goes to A7 then Dm.
Eb is a bII, either tritone sub for A7 or phrygian borrowed chord (probably resolving straight to Dm.
The chords won't sub for one another in that context.

The only time Eb=Edim when the major is a V chord in a minor key, and the dim is a dim7.
Eg, in key of Ab minor, Eb is V, and Edim (or rather Edim7) will sub for it - both resolving to Abm. That's because Edim7=Gdim7, vii chord of key, and is a rootless Eb7b9.
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  #23  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:04 AM
phmike
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@JonPR - I can see the theory behind that. I rarely play any music with dim chords so they are not a chord I remember how to play without looking at my cheat sheet. Although in theory Edim does not equal Eb (or any dim not equalling a major chord half step down) the swap sounds close enough (meaning sour or harsh like a dim chord) that nobody has thrown stuff at me - yet
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  #24  
Old 03-16-2013, 04:43 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phmike View Post
@JonPR - I can see the theory behind that. I rarely play any music with dim chords so they are not a chord I remember how to play without looking at my cheat sheet. Although in theory Edim does not equal Eb (or any dim not equalling a major chord half step down) the swap sounds close enough (meaning sour or harsh like a dim chord) that nobody has thrown stuff at me - yet
Yes, it will work in certain contexts. Just not all!
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