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Old 03-12-2013, 08:25 PM
clintj clintj is offline
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Default Jethro Tull Hymn 43 - Key?

Trying to help the wife with something here, and I'm stumped on finding the real key center. My theory book is not quite working for this one as it does not follow "traditional" harmonizing of a scale. The song is Jethro Tull's Hymn 43. We can't find sheet music online or in our store for the flute part Ian Anderson plays, so if we can figure out the key she can improvise on that. The chord progression is:
D - C - A - G
D - C - G
D - C - G - Bb - A - G, all are major chords.
I'm leaning towards G, as each verse ends on it and considering the Bb and A as borrowed chords. Am I right, or is it a different key or written in one of the modes instead? I appreciate any insight from the group.
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  #2  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:06 PM
phmike
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OMG! - RUN AWAY - it's the return of the revenge of the Sweet Home Alabama massacre progression! It's another one of those songs that can sound in one key to some folks and another key to other folks and you can finaggle theory to fit D or G.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:24 PM
clintj clintj is offline
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Um, OK? Did I ask something that's started an argument here before?
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:42 PM
phmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clintj View Post
Um, OK? Did I ask something that's started an argument here before?
Not here that I can remember but I've seen the "wars" about the correct key of Sweet Home Alabama on other forums. (most recently at talkbass.com)
After the dust settles folks agree to disagree and let your own ears decide.
Me? Whatevah - I'm the bass player, just give me a lead sheet and I'll play what's on it otherwise I might play something different each time depending on how I'm feeling that day.
Tull's Hymn 43? I tried listening to it but I'm not good at hearing that kind of thing. My guess is there will be two keys suggested - D or G - and folks will show the theory behind their decision and/or say they obviously hear it in one key or the other.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:10 PM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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whatever key you want to call it in, you ain't improvising over that with one scale.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:18 PM
phmike
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My sleepy shot at it

Code:
I   IV  V   bVI  bII  bIII  bVII
D   G   A   Bb   Eb   F     C

I   IV  V   bVI  bII  bIII  bVII
G   C   D   Eb   Ab   Bb    F
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  #7  
Old 03-13-2013, 03:36 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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I agree with phmike, the key is D - although I don't know where he got the Eb and F chords from.

clintj's chords are essentially right, for the main verse sequence. Breaking them down bar by bar (riffs detailed later):

|D - C - |A - (riff 1)|
|D - C - |G - - - |
|D - C - |G/B - Bb - |
|A - - - |G - - - |

riff 2 (8-bar interlude)

VERSE 2
+ riff 2

BRIDGE
|D - C - |Bm - (riff 3)|
|D - C - |Bm - (riff 3)|
|A - - - |G - - - |

VERSE 3 (guitar solo)
+ BRIDGE
+ interlude (riff 2, 4 bars)

VERSE 4
+ riff 2

RIFF 1 (bass and piano, I think)
Code:
(A7/G)
---------------|--------
---------------|--------
---------------|--------
---------------|--------
----------3-4--|--------
3---0-3---0-3--|--------
3 . . . 4 . . .
RIFF 2 (unison)
Code:
(D min pent)
---------------------------------|--------
---------------------------------|--------
---------------------------------|--------
----------------3-------5--------|--------
5---5---5-3----------------------|--------
------------5--------------------|--------
1 . . . 2 . . . 3 . . . 4 . .  .
RIFF 3 (implied Bb chord?)
Code:
1-0-----0------|--------
----3-------3--|--------
---------------|--------
---------------|--------
---------------|--------
---------------|--------
3 . . . 4 . . .
Points:

1. Riff 1 looks like a G riff, but there's an A7 chord being played over it, and the C-C# at the end backs that up, leading back to D. Key feels very much like D so far.

2. The second 2 bars is the only point where I feel it does (kind of) resolve to G. (This is one of two places where it parallels Sweet Home Alabama...)

3. The A-G sequence on the 4th line is a definite pointer back to a D key centre. (The only way it could be stronger is if these chords were the other way round.)

4. Riff 2 (repeated 4 times, solo breaks between) is clear D minor pent, although it does end on G, and - in the other parallel with SHA - at the end of the song, they hold this last G as a final chord. (Skynyrd always ended on G when they played SHA live.)
This seems to mean either (a) Tull themselves thought the key was G, or (b) they just liked the surprise of ending on the IV chord.
IMO, this is where they differ from Skynyrd. The latter really played the ending of SHA as if they believed the key was G, heard it as G. Tull's quirky group personality points more strongly to ending on IV as a joke.

5. The bridge of this song is clearly based on the last 2 lines of the verse sequence, the Bm standing for the G/B in the verse. There is no clear bass note following the Bm, but riff 3 would fit Bb, as well as (of course) being a simple Dm or G7 riff, resolving to D.

Overall, a key centre of D seems undeniable (FWIW ).

As for Jeff's assertion "you ain't improvising over that with one scale" , guitarist Mick Abrahams manages OK with something very like D minor pent - which is ballpark for this sort of classic rock progression: major tonic, plus major IV and V, plus the usual suspects - bVII and bVI borrowed from D minor.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:52 AM
clintj clintj is offline
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Thanks for the great answer, jonpr. I see how now that is D with two added chords now in the verse. What was throwing me off was that the roots off the chords very nearly form the complete G minor scale (there's a G, A, Bb, C, and D), and the C-C# is also the IV and bV of the G blues scale. When you mentioned the last lines of the verse and the bridge leading back to D through G and A that was my "aha!" moment. Oh, and thanks for the correction on the verse chords. G/B does sound more right, and apparently my phone thought I wanted to add that G to the first line. I'll explain it to her and see how she wants to approach it.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:04 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clintj View Post
Thanks for the great answer, jonpr. I see how now that is D with two added chords now in the verse. What was throwing me off was that the roots off the chords very nearly form the complete G minor scale (there's a G, A, Bb, C, and D), and the C-C# is also the IV and bV of the G blues scale.
True. Even the F# in the D chord can be explained as part of G harmonic minor! (and the E naturals here and there would be G dorian or melodic minor) .

But the mistake is to analyse the song by looking at it - judging from the list of notes and chords. What scale do they (mostly) seem to come from?

Obviously, looking at the chords (and spelling the notes) will give you the scale(s), the material you need to solo with, if that's all you're looking for. But it won't tell you the key (if you want to know that for some reason, eg for an analysis exercise, or to understand chord functions and relationships).
The key is what sounds like the key, not what looks like it.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:07 AM
Purfle Haze Purfle Haze is offline
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Default "Hymn 43, with amendments"

Clint,

Have you heard the XM Radio recording of this tune? Tull performed the entire Aqualung album live in the studio for an XM broadcast in 2004. Ian Anderson refers to it as "Hymn 43, with amendments." It opens with the song played as a jig. I like it better than the original arrangement.


It's here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0XzBHS09w
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:18 AM
clintj clintj is offline
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That's a nice version of that song. I like it! I'll play that for her and see how long it takes her to roll her eyes and say "no flippin' way" She is the second flute/piccolo in the community band, and has played off and on since sixth grade. She will freely admit that she does not have that very high level of mastery over the instrument that Ian does. He really is very, very good at what he plays and has been playing for decades. Her playing Tull like that would be like me playing some Tommy Emmanuel with the same kind of grace he does. We can probably work out something based on the scales used in the riffs that will be pretty faithful to the feel of the original though.
This started as a song suggestion from a friend who will play lead guitar in a project my current band's bass player and I are working on together. We are still looking for a fourth or fifth person to round it out and set a first rehearsal date, but that just means plenty of time for me and her to practice and hone our chops. Thanks again, everyone.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:33 AM
clintj clintj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
True. Even the F# in the D chord can be explained as part of G harmonic minor! (and the E naturals here and there would be G dorian or melodic minor) .

But the mistake is to analyse the song by looking at it - judging from the list of notes and chords. What scale do they (mostly) seem to come from?

Obviously, looking at the chords (and spelling the notes) will give you the scale(s), the material you need to solo with, if that's all you're looking for. But it won't tell you the key (if you want to know that for some reason, eg for an analysis exercise, or to understand chord functions and relationships).
The key is what sounds like the key, not what looks like it.
Knowing the scales used in the riffs helps a lot, and should help out a great deal. Knowing the key and what the added chords are is a bit extra for me. I've worked out several songs as practice exercises, but this one had me baffled. I look at is as practice for writing and playing with others. This way, if I get told a song is in D, I know which chords to expect, and which may be also available that can fit into the structure. I just found out about adding in things like the bVII chord recently, and it turned my ideas about the standard I-IV-V progression on its ear. D-C-G can be in the key of D? Interesting stuff!
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  #13  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:03 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clintj View Post
Knowing the scales used in the riffs helps a lot, and should help out a great deal. Knowing the key and what the added chords are is a bit extra for me. I've worked out several songs as practice exercises, but this one had me baffled. I look at is as practice for writing and playing with others. This way, if I get told a song is in D, I know which chords to expect, and which may be also available that can fit into the structure. I just found out about adding in things like the bVII chord recently, and it turned my ideas about the standard I-IV-V progression on its ear. D-C-G can be in the key of D? Interesting stuff!
Absolutely.

To pursue the topic (on my usual principle of Too Much Info ), I think of two families of chromatic chords that can be added to the usual major key set. Using D major as the example:

1. Borrowed from the parallel minor (D minor):
bIII (F)
iv (Gm)
bVI (Bb)
bVII (C)

2. Secondary dominants:
D7 = V of G
E = V of A
F#= V of Bm
B = V of Em
C# = V of F#m

List #1 are the most common in rock music, at least since the mid-1960s, and traceable back before that. All these are considered, in rock, as conventional additional chords in D major. Gm would be the rarest, but that's not saying much; it's still quite common.
Their effect is to make the plain major key "heavier", "darker", groovier. The minor IV adds an element of mystery or spookiness.

List #2 are common in classical and jazz, less so in rock - except, of course, rock that is more influenced by classical or jazz, or by traditional pop songwritiing in general.
Althought these chords all have a dominant function (designed to lead to their target diatonic chord), the only one that needs a 7th is D, the tonic. This is because a plain D-G is just a I-IV change. D7-G makes it "V/IV-IV". With the others, their major 3rds are chromatic (outside D major), and act as leading tones to the following chord root, identifying them as dominant in function.
In rock, the most common of these would be E leading to A (very common in country-influenced rock) and F# leading to Bm.
Their effect is kind of opposite to list #1: they brighten the major key, by injecting energy or forward momentum into particular changes. It's like turbocharging the usual moves.
But because it's such a conventional sound (dating back centuries, common in vintage pop as well as jazz and classical) it can sound old-fashioned, making chord progressions too predictable. (While the borrowed chords can pretty much go anywhere, spreading their funky vibe just by being around, secondary dominants normally have to do their traditional job, leading where we expect; that's why you would employ them in the first place.)

But the point about both sets of chords is to try them out, to get acquainted with the sounds and the effects they have, so you can decide if and when you want to use them.
Eg, imagine you're throwing a party: List #1 are the cool dudes you invite because they make the whole party look cool just by hanging around (hey, this is the place to be...); list #2 are like chefs, DJs, or lighting experts - specialist jobs that make the whole thing more professional, make it go without a hitch. You don't have to invite any of them - depends on the vibe or impact you want your party to have.

BTW, List #2 - being functional dominants - can also be expanded by the use of substitutes: in particular tritone subs and dim7 subs (just as you can use those subs for the primary dominant, A). No need to go there right now...
And list #1 can be expanded - just a little - by considering borrowing from phrygian and lydian; these only add Eb and E major chords. As you see, E is already up for grabs as V/V, and Eb might often be acting as tritone sub for A...
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Last edited by JonPR; 03-13-2013 at 11:14 AM.
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  #14  
Old 03-13-2013, 12:33 PM
clintj clintj is offline
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Can you recommend a good book or books for this material? My book goes as far as harmonizing the scales and substitutions, but stops well short of this level of detail. I'd love to learn more of this stuff.
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  #15  
Old 03-13-2013, 12:44 PM
phmike
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Quote:
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I agree with phmike, the key is D - although I don't know where he got the Eb and F chords from.
From D minor.

Eb - iidim in D minor changed to major a half step down (bII) which makes Edim into Eb.

F - bIII

Seemed to work for half-asleep me
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